Is plugging a head into a power conditioner bad?

[georgestrings]

See post #96; we've come almost full circle.

Personally I'd rather "waste" a rack space than have a rat's nest on the floor, especially when the band's set up out on the floor. I've seen what happens when someone steps/trips on a plastic outlet strip, and you can only do so much with gaffer's tape to improve your odds.

I dunno - this seems pretty neat to me:

Notice only one power cord coming from the surge strip...



- georgestrings

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

When you have neons the way to minimize noise is with twin-T filters on the neon supply wire, to filter the hash that they create at the source.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
The best place for them is as close to the neons as possible, so that RF they create doesn't use the wiring as an antenna, with your pickups being the receiver.

Exactly. Usually the bigger problem with neon lights is that the noise gets in through instrument pickups, moreso than through the AC line. That's a hard thing to solve unless you put in humbuckers.

 

[bongomania]

And you're wrong about the audiophile thing, too. Enjoying listening to music doesn't disqualify one from having a valid opinion.

That's hilarious--you honestly don't know the meaning of the words subjective and objective!

 

[okcrum]

I dunno - this seems pretty neat to me:

Notice only one power cord coming from the surge strip...

Agreed. As I said, I'd be real concerned about what happens when someone trips/falls over that one power cord - does the rack get disemboweled?

I do this same sort of thing with the racks in my lab at home, but they're not out on the gig. I've got two metal rack strips bolted vertically onto each rack, which is 5' high.

I just wouldn't trust plastic (even bolted to the rack) out on the gig. Now one interesting idea would be to use Wiremold and bolt it down, but that could easily cost more than a Furman. Even Wiremold 6 outlet metal strips cost more than a Furman.

 

[Bluesbob]

That's hilarious--you honestly don't know the meaning of the words subjective and objective!

So what? Even if that was a true statement, have you never encountered (amp, CD player, etc.) something which measures well, yet sounds terrible? I know what I like because I have heard (on my own system and on other, far more expensive and revealing systems) the differences betwen analog and the various forms of digital media. Just because something cannot be measured doesn't mean it's not there. And like the Duke says, "if it sounds good, it is good."
Personally, I think this entire thread is hilarious. The answer to the OP's question would have been a simple, "no", except for all the spurious opinions introduced, both subjective and "objective".

 

[silky smoove]

Just because something cannot be measured doesn't mean it's not there.

Actually, it does. That's sort of the nature of physics. No amount of posting can change the laws of physics to validate an opinion.

The answer to the OP's question would have been a simple, "no"

Have you read the thread at all? It's not a simple "no." Bob Lee (amp designer and engineer for QSC), agedhorse (amp designer and engineer for Genz Benz) and Bill Fitzmaurice (cabinet designer and mad scientist EE extraordinaire) have all given very valid, scientific and factual reasons why it CAN cause problems by doing so.

 

[bongomania]

The corollary of course is "just because you think something's there doesn't mean it exists". It's telling that Bluesbob persists in using the words "opinions" and "assumptions" to describe statements that were made based on science and education.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Just because something cannot be measured doesn't mean it's not there.

Another oddiophile argument that has absolutely no basis in fact. Measuring tools are far more accurate than the human ear, and can easily measure what can't be heard.

 

[SFjonstarr]

It's fairly easy to trick the ear into hearing things that aren't there. Personally I don't really care in practice whether the sound is actually there as long as the listener hears it.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

In all fairness, most people know very little about measuring, identifying, quantifying, and characterizing things, so naturally they might assume that these processes can't be done.

 

[georgestrings]

Agreed. As I said, I'd be real concerned about what happens when someone trips/falls over that one power cord - does the rack get disemboweled?

I do this same sort of thing with the racks in my lab at home, but they're not out on the gig. I've got two metal rack strips bolted vertically onto each rack, which is 5' high.

I just wouldn't trust plastic (even bolted to the rack) out on the gig. Now one interesting idea would be to use Wiremold and bolt it down, but that could easily cost more than a Furman. Even Wiremold 6 outlet metal strips cost more than a Furman.

For one thing, I don't let people walk behind my rig for the most part, so no one's ever tripped on the power cable - it's usually close to the stage's backdrop, anyways... Also, I have the power cable tie-wrapped as sort of a strain relief - I've got over 200 gigs on that setup w/out any troubles, so it's pretty reliable/durable, IME...


- georgestrings

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Another oddiophile argument that has absolutely no basis in fact. Measuring tools are far more accurate than the human ear, and can easily measure what can't be heard.

Actually this isnt true, there isnt a mic out there that can do what the human brain/ear can do as far as resolving details in the middle of chaos. This is why audio engineers and producers have to resort to all kinds of multiple mic set ups and signal processing to make a band in a room sound as good as it does when you are standing there.
Sure dogs can hear better, sure there are mics that have a higher sensitivity or wider bandwidth. But the best peice of lab equipment in the world is a good pair of ears wired up to a top of the line brain.

my main argument against racking power conditioners with your amp is that it usually goes hand in hand with all kinds of foolishness riding along to the show. Compressors, exciters, outboard parametric EQ etc. I've been down that road and the road to poor tone is paved with good intentions.
Bass-cable-amp-cable-cab.


Ps Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Actually this isnt true, there isnt a mic out there that can do what the human brain/ear can do as far as resolving details in the middle of chaos. This is why audio engineers and producers have to resort to all kinds of multiple mic set ups and signal processing to make a band in a room sound as good as it does when you are standing there.

Actually, it is true. I'm not sure what you mean by "resolving details in the middle of chaos," but it appears that you might be confusing intelligence--i.e., interpreting what the sounds mean--with what a mic does.

Sure dogs can hear better, sure there are mics that have a higher sensitivity or wider bandwidth. But the best peice of lab equipment in the world is a good pair of ears wired up to a top of the line brain.

I guess it depends on what you're trying to do with your lab. If you're not trying to do anything significant, your statement could be valid.

 

[Bluesbob]

In all fairness, most people know very little about measuring, identifying, quantifying, and characterizing things, so naturally they might assume that these processes can't be done.

Even fewer know anything about psychoacoustics.
And like the Duke says, "if it sounds good, it is good!"
The objectivist-subjectivist wars have been going on forever. I never doubted which side guys that design mass-market amplifiers or speaker cabs would take. I am surprized at the amount of opinions posted on this board by an amen choir with no "measuring, identifying, quantifying and characterizing" experience at all. But I'm very happy to be able to express an alternative to the accepted wisdom, if only to make sure that the "wisdom" is not taken as fact.
It's obvious that there are many things that can't be measured. How do you measure realism, emotion, drama? All the things that analog does better than digital.
If you go over this entire thread it can be seen that the answer to the OP's original question would indeed have been a simple "no." To bring up audiophile arguments (in the fourth post - thanks Bill) clouded the original issue to the point of silliness. And to say that the CD format measures better than the LP format in all areas is not only silly, but an opinion that is measurably untrue.
It might be time for the "objectivists" to step back and condider what they're actually saying.

 

[peterpalmieri]

If you go over this entire thread it can be seen that the answer to the OP's original question would indeed have been a simple "no."

I really don't care about all these other arguements going on...

BUT I don't understand how you can say "no" when there are circumstances that Plugging a head into a power conditioner is not a good idea.

 

[BassIan]

So what? Even if that was a true statement, have you never encountered (amp, CD player, etc.) something which measures well, yet sounds terrible? I know what I like because I have heard (on my own system and on other, far more expensive and revealing systems) the differences betwen analog and the various forms of digital media. Just because something cannot be measured doesn't mean it's not there. And like the Duke says, "if it sounds good, it is good."
Personally, I think this entire thread is hilarious. The answer to the OP's question would have been a simple, "no", except for all the spurious opinions introduced, both subjective and "objective".

If it can't be measured, there is truly no way you can hear it. The ear may be impressive, but it is certainly not capable of discerning what even mediocre sensing equipment can.

Agree, if it sounds good, it is good. I'd append "If you know *why* it sounds good, you can probably *make* it good."

As for "resolving chaos," place a good quality stereo microphone at listening position with a room. You will capture the mix in a reasonably close way to what would be heard. A studio recording sounds nothing like this because it's not what people want to hear on a record. You know this! Your implication about the sensitivity of the human ear is baseless and easily disproven. There are innumerable systems that are orders of magnitude more sensitive than the human ear, and just as many with equally superior processing to the human brain with regard to those signals. I agree, it is impressive that we can discern specific sounds (language) within a blend of sounds, but that doesn't prove anything regarding sensitivity or fidelity.

There have been plenty of objectively stated facts in this thread; no need for the provocative quotations. The people stating these facts are engineers, scientists, or otherwise practically experienced with audio. This isn't a battle between "objectivity" and "subjectivity". That's a futile battle. This is a battle between people who have stated and clearly understand the facts, and those who deny those facts but don't possess the understanding or knowledge to argue their side. Invariably these parameters result in a frustrating discussion. Those who don't know refuse to learn. Facts are not opinions.

Make your case in a comprehensive, respectful way, and you might get a little bit more rewarding discussion in return. Or you could keep stirring the pot in your passive-aggressive way, as above, to keep the "spurious" opinions coming.

 

[silky smoove]

I really don't care about all these other arguements going on...

BUT I don't understand how you can say "no" when there are circumstances that Plugging a head into a power conditioner is not a good idea.

+1

I'm convinced that based on Bluesbob's continued posting and the fact that he's clearly ignoring what's already been said many times over in this thread, that he's simply trolling. He's doing a great job of it too.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Well said, BassIan, as always.

If it's imagined, it can't be measured except by testing the imaginer. But if it's actually there, it can be measured, even if there are other people who don't know anything about testing and measuring.

And if something sounds terrible (and assuming it's not the source material that sounds terrible), it will measure strangely in some way or ways, even if someone else doesn't know what there is to measure.

 

[Buster Brown]

Agreed. As I said, I'd be real concerned about what happens when someone trips/falls over that one power cord - does the rack get disemboweled?

I do this same sort of thing with the racks in my lab at home, but they're not out on the gig. I've got two metal rack strips bolted vertically onto each rack, which is 5' high.

I just wouldn't trust plastic (even bolted to the rack) out on the gig. Now one interesting idea would be to use Wiremold and bolt it down, but that could easily cost more than a Furman. Even Wiremold 6 outlet metal strips cost more than a Furman.

Yeah, I don't get the "general idea" here....:scowl:

If I get the majority of this nonsense right, it's perfectly OK to plug your head into a $5.98 power strip from XYZ store, but somehow it's bad to plug it into a rack mounted power strip.....

Sometimes these geniuses amaze me.....

 

[Growly Lytes]

If we all find out somwhere down the road after countless pages of opinions that it isnt good to use a conditoner or it doesnt make a difference, it will have alot of poeple scatching their heads.
I never use 1 & ive never had problems(knock on wood)I get clean power from the outlet in the wall.
I really dont see a conclusion to this question anytime soon !!