Is plugging a head into a power conditioner bad?

[billfitzmaurice]

The stage was a flatbed trailer, with a metal ground strip running its length. .

In deals like these the usual culprit is running a long extension cord from the nearest building, sometimes hundreds of feet distant. That effectively renders ground protection non-existent. The right way is to have a service drop to a breaker box at the trailer/stage, with its own ground rod. But as the right way isn't the cheap way it's seldom employed.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

exactly why I used my Tripplite LCR2400 whenever running my sound system from a generator. I also always ran a ground spike. Our generator had a prominently labeled spot to strap the spikes lead to. Others were not so obvious, but it is something that outdoor sound guys, stagehand promoters are supposed to be aware of. I am surprised noone got hurt at your friends show! I have seen events where I measured a 90 volt potential between the PA and the backline. The worst mistake is to not only run a long extension cord, but to run a SECOND ONE from a different circuit. When you telescope lines like that and defeat their ground protection you end up with possibly lethal problems!

 

[MechEngr]

Thanks for the input on this one. That Tripplite you have is a substantial piece of equipment, and while I was considering a voltage-regulated power source, there are several places in this thread that say, "Don't do it", for one reason or another (from what I read, it was mostly the amp manufacturer's instructions). Why an amp manufacturer would object to it is counter-intuitive to me. Calaverasgrande, do you have any opinion (or experience) with the Furman P8 Pro II? I'm looking for system protection, and not necessarily constant voltage (although if the two go hand-in-hand, I'm all for it.) Thanks again.

 

[bongomania]

It's a balancing act, you have to weigh potential benefits against potential risks. When you're doing a show on a truck bed hundreds of feet from the power source, or when stagehand "Toothless Slim" figured he knew how to wire everything up all by hisself, then the potential risks are very high. So a voltage regulator is not a bad idea then. But that doesn't mean there's no problem with voltage regulators--it only means that any potential drop in amp performance is negligible compared to the risk of being electrocuted.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Thanks for the input on this one. That Tripplite you have is a substantial piece of equipment, and while I was considering a voltage-regulated power source, there are several places in this thread that say, "Don't do it", for one reason or another (from what I read, it was mostly the amp manufacturer's instructions). Why an amp manufacturer would object to it is counter-intuitive to me. Calaverasgrande, do you have any opinion (or experience) with the Furman P8 Pro II? I'm looking for system protection, and not necessarily constant voltage (although if the two go hand-in-hand, I'm all for it.) Thanks again.

I would just get a good tripplite power strip. I always am wary of the furman style rack power bars because they seem overpriced, and they usually are gonna end up on top of your amp, trapping in heat.
I would only go that route if I had several boxes in a rack. Like a preamp, effect unit, limiter and poweramp. In that case it would just be so I would only have one power switch, and not several. I think this is the main reason you see so many furmans out there. Nothing to do with quality (or lack of). Its just convenience.

 

[Bluesbob]

I would just get a good tripplite power strip. I always am wary of the furman style rack power bars because they seem overpriced, and they usually are gonna end up on top of your amp, trapping in heat.
I would only go that route if I had several boxes in a rack. Like a preamp, effect unit, limiter and poweramp. In that case it would just be so I would only have one power switch, and not several. I think this is the main reason you see so many furmans out there. Nothing to do with quality (or lack of). Its just convenience.

That's a perfect distillation of the previous 15 pages of blather. That Furman (P8 ProII) is actually just a glorified power strip, with surge protection, in a rack-mountable configuration. It does nothing to limit the amount of current that's available to your amp.
I have a six-space rack that I use sometimes, with a tuner, compressor, 2-space head and wireless receiver. Everything plugs into the Furman and I can be tuned up and ready to play in less than 2 minutes. Very convenient.
But the Furman works. Last time we played outdoors at a golf course the guitard handed me a 4-outlet metal junction box. I didn't think to check it with my outlet tester. I just assumed... (DOH!). Sure enough, the protection popped on the Furman. Did it save my amp (and the PA)? I have no idea. I just re-set the Furman, threw the junction box in the pond and continued to set up.
BTW, I bought the series II with the digital voltmeter (same as the PL-Plus DMC, minus the ammeter - but with red LED's), for $89.00 when they first came out. I definitely would look for another solution now that they're so ridiculously over-priced. $310.00? You've got to be kidding!

Here's the specs for the Furman P8 Pro II:

Furman P-8 PRO II Advanced Power Conditioner Features:

SMP provides the highest level of surge protection available
LiFT significantly reduces AC line noise
EVS protects equipment from dangerous overvoltage conditions
Zero ground contamination circuitry assures delivery of pure AC
BNC connector on the rear panel allows connection of any standard gooseneck lamp
Eight rear-panel outlets and one front-panel outlet
20-amp rating, with high inrush-capable magnetic circuit breaker
Front panel master power switch protected by hinged panel to prevent accidental power off
10', 12-gauge, heavy-duty power cable
Three-year limited manufacturer's warranty
Dimensions: 1-3/4" H x 19" W x 10-1/2" D
Weight: 11 lb.
Price: (at MF) $260.00!!! Yikes!!!

That may seem like a lot of stuff for the price, but it's still just a glorified power strip, with a surge protector and an over-voltage trip. There is NO actual "power conditioning", other than the "zero ground contamination circuitry" (probably just a cap shunted to ground) and there is NO isolation transformer. SMP is important, I guess, if you want high-voltage protection that doesn't self-destruct, and can be re-set. The Pro II series is the same as the Series II, but has a 20-amp breaker (and the cute little door protecting the on-off switch). Of course, the 15-amp breaker usually connected to the outlet you're plugging into will go before the Furman, so the 20-amp capability does nothing.

 

[calebbarton]

yeah I have a fuse in my amp.

 

[FletcherML]

I'm confused. So many posts in this forum that have nothing to do with OP's question. Is there a solid yes or no to this or is it a matter of opinion? I've got an Ampeg SVT CL which id say is a high quality amp. So use a conditioner or no?

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I'm confused. So many posts in this forum that have nothing to do with OP's question. Is there a solid yes or no to this or is it a matter of opinion?

That depends whose opinion you value, that of engineers or that of those who do something else for a living.

 

[David Jayne]

That depends whose opinion you value, that of engineers or that of those who do something else for a living.

That, or you could just read your amp's manual- it's full of 'Do This' and 'Never Do That.' I can assure you it will NOT recommend you use a 'power conditioner.'

 

[billfitzmaurice]

That, or you could just read your amp's manual-

Now that's just plain un-American, and it's a severe violation of Man Law as well.

 

[ric stave]

Now that's just plain un-American, and it's a severe violation of Man Law as well.

Same reason I only ever use MapQuest by signing on under my wife's account.....

 

[FletcherML]

I have read my owners manual through and through since the day I bought my classic and there is certainly nothing there that says DON'T use a conditioner. I'm going to have my amp in a flight case with rack equipment and being able to run one power cord sure would be great. I appreciate the posts but I just can't figure out why a power conditioner would be bad. Other than starving the amp, but how likely is that?

 

[Gerhn Blanston]

I'm confused. So many posts in this forum that have nothing to do with OP's question. Is there a solid yes or no to this or is it a matter of opinion? I've got an Ampeg SVT CL which id say is a high quality amp. So use a conditioner or no?

I've asked this question directly to the administration over on the Gallien-Krueger forum. Don't look for an yes or no answer because your never gonna get one from a manufacturer. If you by chance you do get an answer please share with the class.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I have read my owners manual through and through since the day I bought my classic and there is certainly nothing there that says DON'T use a conditioner. I'm going to have my amp in a flight case with rack equipment and being able to run one power cord sure would be great. I appreciate the posts but I just can't figure out why a power conditioner would be bad. Other than starving the amp, but how likely is that?

Crown recently responded to the question. They said none of their gear requires or benefits from 'conditioning'. None of their older models with standard power supplies benefit from voltage regulation. Newer ultra-lights with switching supplies can benefit from voltage regulation, but only if the regulator is capable of the full rated current draw of the amp.

 

[Bluesbob]

I picked one of these up at Lowes yesterday. Metal case, 15 foot 14 ga. cord. That's plenty for most rigs.
Invalid Link Removed

On a related note ( rimshot!), I went to Lowe's and bought that PRIME surge protector with the 1150 joules of protection and the 15-foot cord. My band has a recurring monthly gig at a nearby golf course on Thursday evenings and it requires lugging equipment across a grassy surface. I want to use my 4-space rack with my rack-mount tuner and wireless, as well as my 2-space amp. So the Furman "power conditioner" (in quotes because it actually is no such thing - see 16 previous pages of this thread) has to go (or the tuner). Unfortunately the warnings on the surge protector say "never use outdoors" and "never connect to an extension cord". I don't recall seeing this warning on the Furman, but I could (as always) be wrong. Anyways, for this outdoor gig, using extension cords from the clubhouse, do I have to go back to the Furman (assuming that I'm keeping the rack case), or can I use the PRIME surge protector?

 

[countrybassist]

My SVT-CL buzzes when I plug it into a power conditioner, so I just go into a surge protector.

 

[seamonkey]

Crown recently responded to the question. They said none of their gear requires or benefits from 'conditioning'. None of their older models with standard power supplies benefit from voltage regulation. Newer ultra-lights with switching supplies can benefit from voltage regulation, but only if the regulator is capable of the full rated current draw of the amp.

Do you have a reference?
Link or publication?
This would be good for a FAQ

 

[countrybass007]

I know many people consider them a waste, but I just worked an outdoor gig where it came in real handy. My conditioner told me via the voltage readout that I was only getting 95 to 98 volts. My Crown power amp didn't care much for this, nor did my JBL powered speakers. I was able to notify then folks running the show, and they finally figured out that the beer wagon was on the same circuit and causing the problem. It helped having the conditioner to make us aware of why some of the gear was acting up. I suppose if it couldn't have been corrected the beer wagon would have won over the music.?

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Anyways, for this outdoor gig, using extension cords from the clubhouse, do I have to go back to the Furman (assuming that I'm keeping the rack case), or can I use the PRIME surge protector?

The problem with outdoor gigs is the length of wire between the gear and the service ground. If you're outdoors that distance should not be more than 25 feet; the only correct way to do it is with a fully grounded service drop at the stage. No conditioner or regulator can save your life when there's no ground protection, and with long extension cords and outdoor gigs it's not there.