Is there an Argument AGAINST High Pass Filters?

[socialleper]

In the regular consumer equipment world I've only heard of High Pass Filters being used in studios to control the boominess of the bass or drums, and tighten them up. After reading a thread on using a Thumpinator, FDeck, or some other type of HPF to ditch frequencies you don't need and are wasting precious watts trying to reproduce, I wondered "why doesn't every five string player have a HPF pedal or on their amp?" If it actually does tighten your lows and make them more usable I would think they would be as common as fuzz pedals around here.
Yet they aren't.
Does the lack of use/lack of availability of HPF pedals stem from them not being all they are cracked up to be, or from a lack of knowledge about what they can do for you?
What are your experiences with HPFs in a live setting that made you want to use one, or stay away from one.

 

[bongomania]

Two main points:

1) Many amps already have a HPF built in, as part of the basic design, like a hidden feature with no controls and no mention in the manual. Some people even say "most" or "nearly all" amps do, but there's no written proof of that claim.

2) Most bassists have never heard of such a thing. It's really just savvy forum readers and audio engineers who know about it.

 

[MCS4]

Because it's a solution to a problem that most bass players don't know that they (might) have.

Survey any group of bassists -- pedal-savvy or otherwise -- and ask them if they think their setup would benefit from cutting out some low frequencies.

P.S. I'm not knocking the concept myself... I intend to try out a Thumpinator/FDeck/etc. one of these days.

 

[socialleper]

Because it's a solution to a problem that most bass players don't know that they (might) have.

Survey any group of bassists -- pedal-savvy or otherwise -- and ask them if they think their setup would benefit from cutting out some low frequencies.

P.S. I'm not knocking the concept myself... I intend to try out a Thumpinator/FDeck/etc. one of these days.

I hear you. On one hand it sounds crazy to "cut your lows" from your bass, but then if you look at the amount of work that goes into creating 30hz or 40hz which aren't always completely audible anyway, why bother?
I'm interested in trying one as well, they just don't seem to be that available.

 

[SirMjac28]

I use filters when I'm using ProTools it helps a great deal in smoothing things out in my opinion.

 

[sunbeast]

It really depends on your particular rig and your tonal goals. A big part of the reason I use an fDeck is how many rock shows I've been to or played where the bass is DI'd through the PA and in the audience is just an atonal boom that muddies up the whole mix and gives me listening fatigue. For other kinds of music that sub-bass is sought after, but to me its a nuisance- my cabinet doesn't put it out in any efficient manner (even beyond the capacity of my amp's built-in HPF), and I don't really want it getting to the audience either! It also adds noticeable headroom when using a medium-powered tube amplifier. I can honestly say that getting my first fDeck (an old Series 1) was one of the best things I ever did for my live bass rig.

 

[goran]

I've read somewhere in this forum that speaker movement cools the voice coil. So if excessive lows are removed and lot of power is being fed into the speaker, I think that voice coil could overheat, because speaker wouldn't move that much. I have no scientific proof to back it up, just re-collecting something that (I think ) I read somewhere.

 

[zac2944]

I've read somewhere in this forum that speaker movement cools the voice coil. So if excessive lows are removed and lot of power is being fed into the speaker, I think that voice coil could overheat, because speaker wouldn't move that much. I have no scientific proof to back it up, just re-collecting something that (I think ) I read somewhere.

I'm no electrical engineer, but I believe it is power from the amp that heats the coil, like a light bulb filiment or a resister getting hot, and all the extra power in the sub bass range would more than offset any heat loss due to convection.

 

[socialleper]

I've read somewhere in this forum that speaker movement cools the voice coil. So if excessive lows are removed and lot of power is being fed into the speaker, I think that voice coil could overheat, because speaker wouldn't move that much. I have no scientific proof to back it up, just re-collecting something that (I think ) I read somewhere.

Even with the lows backed off, the deep mids will move a speaker more than enough.

 

[socialleper]

It really depends on your particular rig and your tonal goals. A big part of the reason I use an fDeck is how many rock shows I've been to or played where the bass is DI'd through the PA and in the audience is just an atonal boom that muddies up the whole mix and gives me listening fatigue. For other kinds of music that sub-bass is sought after, but to me its a nuisance- my cabinet doesn't put it out in any efficient manner (even beyond the capacity of my amp's built-in HPF), and I don't really want it getting to the audience either! It also adds noticeable headroom when using a medium-powered tube amplifier. I can honestly say that getting my first fDeck (an old Series 1) was one of the best things I ever did for my live bass rig.

I'm thinking about one now that I have a good 5 string with a powerful preamp. The lows on my 55-02 get pretty deep, as do my GK 112 Neo cabs, I just don't know if that is as useful for the audience. Since even at 600w I have trouble be heard over the guitars I think I want to economize my power into frequencies that are more audible.
It seems like a HPF would be a no brainer for anyone with a 5 string, yet there seem to be only two outboard options at the moment. I'm thinking about contacting AzureSky about his.
Can anyone suggest a class D head with a built in HPF?

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

I'm thinking about one now that I have a good 5 string with a powerful preamp. The lows on my 55-02 get pretty deep, as do my GK 112 Neo cabs, I just don't know if that is as useful for the audience. Since even at 600w I have trouble be heard over the guitars I think I want to economize my power into frequencies that are more audible.
It seems like a HPF would be a no brainer for anyone with a 5 string, yet there seem to be only two outboard options at the moment. I'm thinking about contacting AzureSky about his.
Can anyone suggest a class D head with a built in HPF?

I have been wanting a good clean head with an HPF since getting my F-Deck. I am with you OP, I thought this thing was a total game changer. All the crap I have bought to "punch" up my sound did nothing compared to my F-Deck.

 

[Milo Spleen]

Isn't it realistic that everything below 80hz could be removed to "tighten up" the low end? Keep the 80 to 250 way out in front?

 

[socialleper]

Isn't it realistic that everything below 80hz could be removed to "tighten up" the low end? Keep the 80 to 250 way out in front?

I believe that is exactly the purpose. In the studio they tend to round off everything under 40 or 50, but 80 isn't that unrealistic either. Live you can create a lot more depth than you can on CD, which may be why HPF aren't that common for live use. The lows you can hear over feel tend to be in the 150-350 range.
So the HFP makes sense logically. I wonder where the disconnect is in their practical use live. Again, it seems like they'd be right up there with an OD as a "must have."

 

[brianrost]

What are your experiences with HPFs in a live setting that made you want to use one, or stay away from one.

After years of fussing with different amp heads, cabinets and pickups I was still having feedback problems with my DB.

Then a few years ago I bought an Acoustic Image Coda amp which has a HPF and found that judicious use of the HPF got rid of my feedback.

This year I bought the F. Deck pre to use with my bigger rig (Walter Woods head into two Bergantino 12") or when using a provided amp.

At this point I am totally sold on HPFs for DB.

For bass guitar, I don't use it.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

To us it would make perfect sense to use a HPF or buy one for a bass head. However, to the layman bass player, a head that cuts lows or reduces would spell disaster for sales in most cases. Probably why it's baked in or just hush-hush on some amp's circuitry.

Could you imagine how many Guitar Center employees would go "Nah, you don't wanna buy the [insert brand name] heads, they do this thing where it cuts out your low end and makes it totally suck". Even if there was a switch you'd hear "...yeah you're paying for the stupid HPF switch, total waste. Come on over here to this Bugera Nuke 3600W bass amp, we're running a 4x10s + 1x15 special. With this rig, you DEFINITELY won't break your cabs from underpowering them!"

 

[silky smoove]

I believe that is exactly the purpose. In the studio they tend to round off everything under 40 or 50, but 80 isn't that unrealistic either.

80 isn't just realistic, it's far more common than 40 or 50. By and large I would say that most high passing of bass guitar in professional studios happens up around 100hz with around a 12db/oct slope that then falls off drastically around 50-60hz. Looking at things on the scope in my studio bore this out, and every piece of music I've mixed utilized a similar technique. For most "normal" bass applications in the studio, all you're really after is roughly 100-400hz. If you can get some cool detail above that and it doesn't interfere with the rest of mix, awesome. If not, don't sweat it. The stuff below it? That just gets in the way of the kick drum and the bottom end of the synthesizers if applicable.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

For bass guitar, through a typical bass amp, it's really not all that important to buy an external HPF, under most conditions. If you're in a boomy environment, roll off the bass control. If you have a big PA with subs, then it might be helpful, but that really should be left to the FOH engineer, assuming they're worth their salt (that's why HPFs are on mixing boards). One exception is full-range piezo-equipped basses; I can slowly (3-5Hz) wiggle the strings of my Rick Turner Electroline and watch the speaker cones move in and out, so the HPF definitely helps with headroom there.

For upright, it's almost critical, and I almost don't play without a HPF. I generally run a mic and using a HPF helps keep feedback down and keeps all the low-end rumble that is acoustically coupled to the top of the bass from muddying things up.

Just remember that a filter - any filter - introduces phase delay. Putting a HPF will cause phase delay of the low frequencies, which in turn could theoretically cause muddiness if different parts of the system have different phase angles due to multiple HPFs placed in different parts of the system. Theoretically, anyway.

 

[silky smoove]

For bass guitar, through a typical bass amp, it's really not all that important to buy an external HPF, under most conditions.

I would agree with this. I use an HPF on my pedalboard downstream of any ultra low frequency generating effects (octave pedals, synths, etc.) and before compression or any "always-on" type effects. Really cleaned things up and got my compression to stop overreacting.

 

[socialleper]

I would agree with this. I use an HPF on my pedalboard downstream of any ultra low frequency generating effects (octave pedals, synths, etc.) and before compression or any "always-on" type effects. Really cleaned things up and got my compression to stop overreacting.

For a four string with notorious mid range like a P bass or Rick I bet it probably isn't that critical. I don't use an Octave or Synth, but preamp on my 55/02 puts out some pretty hefty lows. I have to roll back my bass EQ control to keep it from hitting my comp pedal and limiter on the head so hard. That's what got me thinking about a HPF.

 

[Wfrance3]

I've had an SFX Micro Thumpinator on my board for a few years now, and kinda forget it's there. It's not on top, but always on, so outa sight outa mind I guess...
For me it's like an insurance policy that your low low end won't be crudified when you end up with some random house setup. Keeps me out of Low B jail probably more than I give credit because, like i said, I kinda forget about it. by the way, Thanks Max for this wizardly little invention!