True. The only thing that's directly related to diameter only is dispersion characteristics.
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Is there ever a situation which 10" speakers just aren't good enough?
- Thread starter AngusHasMoxie
- Start date
True. The only thing that's directly related to diameter only is dispersion characteristics.
Short answer is , "no." But it all depends on which 10 & the box built around them.
A 10 isn't a 10 isn't a 10. Neither is a 12, a 12, a 12, nor a 15, a 15, a 15.
You want monster low end? And stunning mids? Look into a 2 x 15" / 2 x 6.5" (also known by 1515/66) cab with Eminence Kappa Lite 3015LFs & 18Sound 6ND410s. A fire-breathing dragon.
http://usspeaker.com/Kappa Lite-3015lf-1.htm
http://usspeaker.com/eighteensound-6ND410-1.htm
A straight 215 w/Eminence Kappa Lite 3015s (non-LF) or Faital Pro 15PR400s is absolutely tremendous, too.
http://usspeaker.com/Kappa Lite-3015-1.htm
http://usspeaker.com/faital pro 15PR400-1.htm
A 10 isn't a 10 isn't a 10. Neither is a 12, a 12, a 12, nor a 15, a 15, a 15.
You want monster low end? And stunning mids? Look into a 2 x 15" / 2 x 6.5" (also known by 1515/66) cab with Eminence Kappa Lite 3015LFs & 18Sound 6ND410s. A fire-breathing dragon.
http://usspeaker.com/Kappa Lite-3015lf-1.htm
http://usspeaker.com/eighteensound-6ND410-1.htm
A straight 215 w/Eminence Kappa Lite 3015s (non-LF) or Faital Pro 15PR400s is absolutely tremendous, too.
http://usspeaker.com/Kappa Lite-3015-1.htm
http://usspeaker.com/faital pro 15PR400-1.htm
Is there ever a situation which 10" speakers just aren't good enough?
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This is your question. And the answer is, yes! If the 10" cabs start off at 60 hz or higher, then they they don't "cut the mustard".
But there are 10" speakers/cabs that do provide that "heart shaking" bass that you mention. Although there are others, the Acme B cabs sound like freakin' 15 inchers and when the open B is hit, they sound like there's an 18" sub woofer in the cab.
So, there are some excellent 10" cabs to be bought as well as some whimpy ones.
(I'll never let go of my Bergantino NV 215!!!!!!!!) But the little Acme B2-10 actually reaches down a little bit lower but the Berg rattles my nads!
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This is your question. And the answer is, yes! If the 10" cabs start off at 60 hz or higher, then they they don't "cut the mustard".
But there are 10" speakers/cabs that do provide that "heart shaking" bass that you mention. Although there are others, the Acme B cabs sound like freakin' 15 inchers and when the open B is hit, they sound like there's an 18" sub woofer in the cab.
So, there are some excellent 10" cabs to be bought as well as some whimpy ones.
(I'll never let go of my Bergantino NV 215!!!!!!!!) But the little Acme B2-10 actually reaches down a little bit lower but the Berg rattles my nads!
Its not just a dragon, it will pillage and violate your town and women as well.
Link Removed
Even though I have a '66 I still GAS for two Duallys, one loaded with each kind of driver.
They are actually very subtle due to the mid drivers covering so much. If you werent using effects or playing upright I bet you wouldnt miss it. That said, for me, it was the first implementation of a tweeter that I was pleased with. It adds what I would describe as "shimmer" to what is already there. I recommend anyone going with a fEARful get the tweeter, and add an on/off switch.
Really wish I could try one of these cabs. Finding a natural sounding tweeter is the journey that brought me to own an Epifani cab. I love my my PS410, but since these are no longer made I need to start looking at other cab choices should something happen to my cab or if I need to upscale my rig. Do you run bi-amped into these cabs or how are they setup?
I have a Selenium D220Ti (smooth as silk) w/HM25-25 horn (90x60) in my 3015 215. What's loaded in your '66?
People who are True Believers in The Cult of Ten (aka Decemites, a term I coined in another thread) will tell you that 10" drivers can do anything...absolutely anything. Leaping tall buildings in a single bound, slaying orcs, and saving damsels in distress (or at least lifting their skirts) are all in a day's work for 10" drivers. To a Decemite, 12"s, 15"s, and 18"s are all girly-men upstart pretenders.
Meanwhile, in the real world, those of us who are atheists regarding Decem (and who have done our homework, not to mention actually listening to rigs...) can say that, without question, larger format drivers have their place. The first step is to decide what tone you want. Tens are quite sufficient for some people, no question about it. But if your ideal tone involves realistic playback levels of the fundamental of your E string or--Decem forbid--low B, then consider something bigger. A few points:
1) 12" drivers are comparatively rare at this time. It's a marketing thing.
2) If you're really serious about deep lows and want 10" drivers for their mid and/or high response, consider biamping with 15" or 18" driver(s) handling the lows. The downside is that it requires the purchase (and carrying about) of more equipment. This is not a solution for someone who drives a VW Beetle. If, as you say, you're currently unemployed, put this suggestion on the shelf until you get your feet under you financially.
3) The theory behind this takes a few factoids and a bit of thinking.
3a) The frequency response arguments quoted by Decemites are flawed. The problem is that the frequency of the signal is measured going INTO the driver, not coming OUT.
Quoth the Decemite, "Huh? What could go wrong? 41.2Hz (low E fundamental) going in--41.2Hz coming out. You're an idiot! Hey everybody, look at the idiot who thinks the driver changes the frequency!"
Quoth me, "Precisely. The driver does change the frequency. When a driver exceeds Xmax (that's a Thiele-Small spec that tells you how much linear excursion you can expect from the cone), the driver begins doubling. Simply stated, a sine wave input begins to approximate a square wave, which means, amongst other things, that you're getting a lot of second harmonic. Your 41.2Hz (or 30.8Hz low B) comes out as 82.4Hz (61.6Hz). Note that these frequencies are well within the capabilities of most 10" drivers, but they are NOT fundamentals."
3b) Most people wouldn't know true deep bass if it kicked them in the butt. They hear something kinda low-ish and assume that it's the real thing. Hence boom-boom car stereo guys who think they've got it going on. Bull hockey. That car stereo stuff bottoms out around 80Hz. A rule of thumb: If you feel it in your chest, it's in the 80-100Hz region, NOT 30-40Hz. Really deep fundamentals can be heard, yes, but they are felt more in the heaving (not mere vibrating) of the floor than in the chest.
3c) Just because you can feel the floor or a tabletop or whatever vibrate, that's not the same thing. This takes experience and ears. If you know someone who has a truly excellent stereo subwoofer (we're talking > $5000 subwoofers, not the pathetic $200 wannabe items you get from Best Buy), go spend some time listening to the low end. Spend enough time at it and you'll come away with a different perspective on what bass can sound like. Hint: Organ recordings are a good place to start.
4) Quoth the Decemite, "Ha! But all I have to do to work around the Xmax limitation is to add more 10" drivers! You lose!"
Quoth me, "Anything you can do, I can do, and do better. I can add another 15" or 18" and my Sd (the area of the cone...this, along with the cone excursion, dictates how much air gets moved) ramps up more quickly than yours."
And, worse yet for the Decemites, 15" and 18" drivers tend to have notably lower Fs (driver resonance) which, other factors being equal, means that the cabinets can be tuned lower. Now we're off into cabinet design and other variables intrude, but the essential point remains true.
5) Someone will inevitably clock in with, "But the human ear can reconstruct the fundamental from the overtones..." This is true, psychoacoustically, but rather misses the point. If a bass player chooses to go for the gold, they don't want tricks--they want the real thing. And some percentage of your audience will know the difference--not all of them--but some. Besides, psychoacoustic tricks don't work on inanimate objects like dance floors.
Grey
P.S.: For those who might be wondering, Decem is Latin for ten. Hence, Decem is the god of 10" speakers, and, verily, he is a jealous god, and thou shalt have no other gods before him. Followers of Decem are Decemites, and, lo, Talkbass is heavily populated with fundamentalist followers of Decem. Diss their god at your peril, for they are quick to anger and like other religious fundamentalists, have no sense of perspective...nor humor. And science is anathema to them. And facts fall harshly upon their ears. And they are strident in their posts.
So it is spoken in the land from whence I come, and, yea verily, it is true unto the end of the thread, and then some...
Meanwhile, in the real world, those of us who are atheists regarding Decem (and who have done our homework, not to mention actually listening to rigs...) can say that, without question, larger format drivers have their place. The first step is to decide what tone you want. Tens are quite sufficient for some people, no question about it. But if your ideal tone involves realistic playback levels of the fundamental of your E string or--Decem forbid--low B, then consider something bigger. A few points:
1) 12" drivers are comparatively rare at this time. It's a marketing thing.
2) If you're really serious about deep lows and want 10" drivers for their mid and/or high response, consider biamping with 15" or 18" driver(s) handling the lows. The downside is that it requires the purchase (and carrying about) of more equipment. This is not a solution for someone who drives a VW Beetle. If, as you say, you're currently unemployed, put this suggestion on the shelf until you get your feet under you financially.
3) The theory behind this takes a few factoids and a bit of thinking.
3a) The frequency response arguments quoted by Decemites are flawed. The problem is that the frequency of the signal is measured going INTO the driver, not coming OUT.
Quoth the Decemite, "Huh? What could go wrong? 41.2Hz (low E fundamental) going in--41.2Hz coming out. You're an idiot! Hey everybody, look at the idiot who thinks the driver changes the frequency!"
Quoth me, "Precisely. The driver does change the frequency. When a driver exceeds Xmax (that's a Thiele-Small spec that tells you how much linear excursion you can expect from the cone), the driver begins doubling. Simply stated, a sine wave input begins to approximate a square wave, which means, amongst other things, that you're getting a lot of second harmonic. Your 41.2Hz (or 30.8Hz low B) comes out as 82.4Hz (61.6Hz). Note that these frequencies are well within the capabilities of most 10" drivers, but they are NOT fundamentals."
3b) Most people wouldn't know true deep bass if it kicked them in the butt. They hear something kinda low-ish and assume that it's the real thing. Hence boom-boom car stereo guys who think they've got it going on. Bull hockey. That car stereo stuff bottoms out around 80Hz. A rule of thumb: If you feel it in your chest, it's in the 80-100Hz region, NOT 30-40Hz. Really deep fundamentals can be heard, yes, but they are felt more in the heaving (not mere vibrating) of the floor than in the chest.
3c) Just because you can feel the floor or a tabletop or whatever vibrate, that's not the same thing. This takes experience and ears. If you know someone who has a truly excellent stereo subwoofer (we're talking > $5000 subwoofers, not the pathetic $200 wannabe items you get from Best Buy), go spend some time listening to the low end. Spend enough time at it and you'll come away with a different perspective on what bass can sound like. Hint: Organ recordings are a good place to start.
4) Quoth the Decemite, "Ha! But all I have to do to work around the Xmax limitation is to add more 10" drivers! You lose!"
Quoth me, "Anything you can do, I can do, and do better. I can add another 15" or 18" and my Sd (the area of the cone...this, along with the cone excursion, dictates how much air gets moved) ramps up more quickly than yours."
And, worse yet for the Decemites, 15" and 18" drivers tend to have notably lower Fs (driver resonance) which, other factors being equal, means that the cabinets can be tuned lower. Now we're off into cabinet design and other variables intrude, but the essential point remains true.
5) Someone will inevitably clock in with, "But the human ear can reconstruct the fundamental from the overtones..." This is true, psychoacoustically, but rather misses the point. If a bass player chooses to go for the gold, they don't want tricks--they want the real thing. And some percentage of your audience will know the difference--not all of them--but some. Besides, psychoacoustic tricks don't work on inanimate objects like dance floors.
Grey
P.S.: For those who might be wondering, Decem is Latin for ten. Hence, Decem is the god of 10" speakers, and, verily, he is a jealous god, and thou shalt have no other gods before him. Followers of Decem are Decemites, and, lo, Talkbass is heavily populated with fundamentalist followers of Decem. Diss their god at your peril, for they are quick to anger and like other religious fundamentalists, have no sense of perspective...nor humor. And science is anathema to them. And facts fall harshly upon their ears. And they are strident in their posts.
So it is spoken in the land from whence I come, and, yea verily, it is true unto the end of the thread, and then some...
Hey man, Im no 10 fanatic, but there is so much wrong in your post I dont even know where to start.
- Jan 12, 2011
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- Artist, Trickfish Amplification Bartolini Emerging Artist, MTD Kingston Emerging Artist. Artist, Tsunami Cables
I like 15's and 18's. Whether they actually sound better, or I just think they sound better because bigger=better, I have no idea.
On topic, if you think that 10's aren't cutting it, then try something other than tens. Not all cabinets are equal, so it really comes down to trying a bunch out and seeing which ones you like the best, imo.
On topic, if you think that 10's aren't cutting it, then try something other than tens. Not all cabinets are equal, so it really comes down to trying a bunch out and seeing which ones you like the best, imo.
I used to play through 8 10's (2 SWR Goliaths). They sounded good and deep but they each weight 80 lbs. I now play through 2 Bag End 1x15's and they weight 40 lbs. each. They also sound good and deep. If weight was not an issue I may very well still be playing through 8 10's.
That's actually what I like. Right around 60hz is plenty of low end for me. Gets too much lower and mud happens.
JimmyM,
I have no problem whatsoever with your position. An honest "I like 60Hz and up" is peachy in my book as long as it gets you where you want to go.
For the record, I had an Ampeg SVT (bought new, mid-70s, Magnavox era) for years; finally sold it about five years ago. So, I had what many here would regard as the gold standard in 10s. Of course, I've also had others: Ampeg V4B (just the cabinet, not the head, marvellous), B25B (two of them at different times, so-so for what I wanted), and currently have two SVT15Es (one's actually an EN, love them). Add to that an Acoustic 371 (grew tired of it, head okay, preferred the V4B cab.), a number of Fender Tremolux cabinets (at different times, lightweight, fun, but actually a guitar cabinet [2 x 10" drivers, incidentally]) and a few other odds and ends, including a Hartke 210XL (note 10s again, a little too zingy for me). Currently I have an Eden D210XLT, but am thinking I'd rather trade/sell it and track down an Ampeg SVT 210HE to replace it.
I assume that you would approve of at least some of those--at least the ones that begin with "Ampeg."
What you describe as 'mud' I cure with biamping, though I'm the first to admit that it's not a solution that's practical for everyone.
The same applies to zfunkman. If 10s curl your toes, go for it. If 15s get the job done, then likewise good.
CL400Peavey says I'm wrong, but advances no reasoning to support his claim. Can't say that I'm surprised. He participated in the thread in which I first coined the Decemite term and...well...let's just say he's consistent.
phillybass101's post I can't make hide nor hair of, so I don't know what to say in response.
Grey
I have no problem whatsoever with your position. An honest "I like 60Hz and up" is peachy in my book as long as it gets you where you want to go.
For the record, I had an Ampeg SVT (bought new, mid-70s, Magnavox era) for years; finally sold it about five years ago. So, I had what many here would regard as the gold standard in 10s. Of course, I've also had others: Ampeg V4B (just the cabinet, not the head, marvellous), B25B (two of them at different times, so-so for what I wanted), and currently have two SVT15Es (one's actually an EN, love them). Add to that an Acoustic 371 (grew tired of it, head okay, preferred the V4B cab.), a number of Fender Tremolux cabinets (at different times, lightweight, fun, but actually a guitar cabinet [2 x 10" drivers, incidentally]) and a few other odds and ends, including a Hartke 210XL (note 10s again, a little too zingy for me). Currently I have an Eden D210XLT, but am thinking I'd rather trade/sell it and track down an Ampeg SVT 210HE to replace it.
I assume that you would approve of at least some of those--at least the ones that begin with "Ampeg."
What you describe as 'mud' I cure with biamping, though I'm the first to admit that it's not a solution that's practical for everyone.
The same applies to zfunkman. If 10s curl your toes, go for it. If 15s get the job done, then likewise good.
CL400Peavey says I'm wrong, but advances no reasoning to support his claim. Can't say that I'm surprised. He participated in the thread in which I first coined the Decemite term and...well...let's just say he's consistent.
phillybass101's post I can't make hide nor hair of, so I don't know what to say in response.
Grey
..as with anything 'your' idea of great tone may not match others views, with that being said I'd suggest at least looking into something like this http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Bass_Cabs/PowerhouseCABS/PHbass4x12-LG.htm
I myself play through a much older cab of this style (an old Sound City pa cab retrofitted with new speakers), I happen to bi-amp mine with a dedicated sub however that Mesa cab looks as though it might cover quite a bit of frequency at pretty decent levels by itself, the simple fact that there is at least one driver near ear height is a advantage right from the start. Anyway good luck and take care
I myself play through a much older cab of this style (an old Sound City pa cab retrofitted with new speakers), I happen to bi-amp mine with a dedicated sub however that Mesa cab looks as though it might cover quite a bit of frequency at pretty decent levels by itself, the simple fact that there is at least one driver near ear height is a advantage right from the start. Anyway good luck and take care
LOL! Hey, I'm all about finding YOUR sound no matter what gear you use. And I'm friends with Larry Hartke and sort of friends with George Grexa from the real Acoustic so I'm always in support of folks using their gear even though I'm an Ampeg guy
The cab design brings out the best of the speakers selected.
Some cabs do below 60hz very well without mud.
Our mileage varies because the lineup of our groups varies. I often play in groups where I'm the only low end so I can and actually have to fill that up. If there were keys playing B3 patches mud could happen.
There are many variables, touch, strings pickups, eq., that allow many bassists to get a lot of music happening below 60hz.
Some cabs do below 60hz very well without mud.
Our mileage varies because the lineup of our groups varies. I often play in groups where I'm the only low end so I can and actually have to fill that up. If there were keys playing B3 patches mud could happen.
There are many variables, touch, strings pickups, eq., that allow many bassists to get a lot of music happening below 60hz.
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