I bet dr. McCay from Stargate Atlantis will approve your excellent point regarded mass.
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Is there ever a situation which 10" speakers just aren't good enough?
- Thread starter AngusHasMoxie
- Start date
I bet dr. McCay from Stargate Atlantis will approve your excellent point regarded mass.
My point re:"piano bass"
was that there is more than just a thud vibrating from a B or E string. There are beautiful overtones that the cab could if well designed reproduce without mud.
To something more serious.
This is suspiciously like conversing on the Internet. Wisdom, falsehoods, armchair experts who never actually (gigged, fired a weapon, had a baby, raised kids, had a job, moved from their parent's home, driven a car, raised sorghum, etc.), those with a smattering of science, scientific experts and those with so much engineering and science that they refute the idea of a new idea.
These arguments go on all over the net.
Pick a subject find a forum and you'll see only the subject has changed from TB.
was that there is more than just a thud vibrating from a B or E string. There are beautiful overtones that the cab could if well designed reproduce without mud. To something more serious
.This is suspiciously like conversing on the Internet.
Wisdom, falsehoods, armchair experts who never actually (gigged, fired a weapon, had a baby, raised kids, had a job, moved from their parent's home, driven a car, raised sorghum, etc.), those with a smattering of science, scientific experts and those with so much engineering and science that they refute the idea of a new idea.These arguments go on all over the net.
Pick a subject find a forum and you'll see only the subject has changed from TB.
Just offering real world experience that runs counter to the BS you posted... Generally speaking, when a person resorts to making up cutsey names for people who disagree with them, it's a sign of having a weak argument... and "bi-amping"??? - that became unnecessary a LONG time ago...
Truthfully, you don't seem capable of seeing "the error of your ways"... Good luck with your spewing of misconceptions - it doesn't make you look dumb at all
...- georgestrings
GRollins, in addition to other incorrect data in your original post, I would like to point out that a half decent car audio setup will easily go down to the 20 Hz area. Loud and clean, given it has been set up to play "hifi" and not just loud.
The enclosed environment of a car will act as an "impedance or load transformer" that will make bass boxes play deeper and louder when placed in it.
Vented boxes tuned in the 30s will often gain an octave of extension, yielding an F3 point below 20Hs.
Please study your facts before writing.
And as much as I like real PA subs (as in good gear) I often see cheaper PA "subs" with 15" or 18" drivers that roll off higher than my Ampeg SVT-410HLFs...
The very loud and deep LAB-subs utilize 12" woofers.
The enclosed environment of a car will act as an "impedance or load transformer" that will make bass boxes play deeper and louder when placed in it.
Vented boxes tuned in the 30s will often gain an octave of extension, yielding an F3 point below 20Hs.
Please study your facts before writing.
And as much as I like real PA subs (as in good gear) I often see cheaper PA "subs" with 15" or 18" drivers that roll off higher than my Ampeg SVT-410HLFs...
The very loud and deep LAB-subs utilize 12" woofers.
Grey,
I suggest you line up 1000 ear buds, and see that particular experiment to its conclusion. I think you would be surprized.
Per your statement comparint the BP 102 to the Omega pro 18:
Comparing drivers from the same family, you'll find:
3010LF: fs = 39 Hz
3012LF: fs = 37 Hz
3015LF: fs = 44 HZ
Seems to contrdict your assertion about 15" drivers having a lower resonant frequency than 10" drivers
xMax since you are so keen on it:
Please compare the two following drivers.
Legend 1518 - xMax 0.8mm - Peak VD - 65.9 cc's.
Link Removed - xMax 8.52mm - Peak VD - 305.4 cc's.
Your understanding of xMax is partially correct, you need to look at the total volume displaced to make any kind of assumption on low frequency reproduction. In either case the 10" driver I quoted crushes the 15" driver in low end potential. Now take a look at your statement of getting a "Low B at 120dB out of 10s..." Sure you may run into volume limitations with any speaker. If you can get the sound you want out of one particular speaker, adding more of them will increase your volume output. Cant get enough low end volume out of one 10" speaker? Use 8, or 16, or how ever many you need to reach that volume.
Per your last post regarding the 18" Cerwin Vega - your example supports my claim that driver size doesnt completely dictate the low end of a bass cab, its the whole cab design as a whole.
This is suspiciously like conversing on the Internet.
A whole buncha that. You know what they say about opinions . . . .
The fs is just a small part of the story.
In this particular case, the 3010LF might have a lower fs but it's Qes is so low you can't make good use of it. The 3015Lf has a higher Qes and therefore is able to produce bass below 40hz with ease (with the appropriate cabinet)
Correct. I was just posting those stats in response to GRollins, who stated that larger drivers have lower fs's.
Really you have to look at the driver, and the cabinet around it as a unique whole. No single spec tells you much of anything.
Yes, I saw that.
I know you have some knowledge about this stuff so it was not personal.
Understood.
I think so much of these misconceptions is a result of looking at what is being implemented in PA use and extrapolating that to MI use.
Big drivers are used for sub woofers out of economy. They move a lot of air, at a lower weight and price, than trying to accomplish the same goal with small drivers. But comparing a $100,000 PA system to a bass rig isnt apples to apples.
Do 10's work for bass? They can. So can 15's, 12's, 8's... There are some people doing interesting things with even smaller drivers.
- Jan 12, 2011
- 4,578
- 2,460
- Disclosures
- Artist, Trickfish Amplification Bartolini Emerging Artist, MTD Kingston Emerging Artist. Artist, Tsunami Cables
My point is despite scientific evidence (fact) on one side and opinions on the other side and all the money we spend for what ever reason for our gear, hardly anyone in the audience cares about the bass player, what he's playing on and through. And out in the room it still sounds like boom. Some players may have a little hearable edge to their boom but it's still boom.
Regarding the OP, and all BS aside - I can get more than enough low end to get me in trouble with the PA out of any of the 10s loaded cabs I listed earlier... I tend to use 10s for modern rock and metal, and 15s for classic rock, country and blues - mostly because I can easily cop a genre appropriate tone that way, although I can pretty much make anything work - and DI to the PA, anyways...
- georgestrings
- georgestrings
IMHO if you are carrying the room with your rig, and all you are getting is boom, then thats the fault of the cabs you use. I do not suffer from terrible boom and lack of clarity out in the room. If you are getting that sound through the PA, then the guy running the board needs to change some stuff up.
I know nothing of science, nor of driver-size based fanaticism but I have this bit of thought to offer:
Many venues that I play in have large PA systems, usually including a giant bin that's designed to handle all the lows that anybody in the audience could ever want. In my opinion, what I need from my stage setup is portability and clarity - something punchy that will do a great job of ensuring that my sound is not eaten up by the drums and guitars and light enough to move without killing my back. This is why I chose 10" drivers. I used to use a 1x15 that sounded pretty good but I wasn't cutting thru in rehearsals, forcing me to turn up, which drove the speaker to hard, resulting in a not-so-pleasant sound. A 2x15 would have helped immensely but would have been unwieldy. The 2x10 solution works very well - I can hear myself better and in live situations, the sound person takes a DI and does their thing at the board to make the lows shake the house.
Not only does this make sense to me but I can say that it definitely works for me in real life situations.
Many venues that I play in have large PA systems, usually including a giant bin that's designed to handle all the lows that anybody in the audience could ever want. In my opinion, what I need from my stage setup is portability and clarity - something punchy that will do a great job of ensuring that my sound is not eaten up by the drums and guitars and light enough to move without killing my back. This is why I chose 10" drivers. I used to use a 1x15 that sounded pretty good but I wasn't cutting thru in rehearsals, forcing me to turn up, which drove the speaker to hard, resulting in a not-so-pleasant sound. A 2x15 would have helped immensely but would have been unwieldy. The 2x10 solution works very well - I can hear myself better and in live situations, the sound person takes a DI and does their thing at the board to make the lows shake the house.
Not only does this make sense to me but I can say that it definitely works for me in real life situations.
I've got two kids home sick from school today, so I'll be doing this in installments, depending on the needs of the moment.
Duke21,
The above-mentioned kids are watching Cars to keep 'em quiet. It occurs to me that it might be useful to have massless race cars. (Going to need to separate weight and mass, still need traction.)
chadds,
I was joking, as I'm hoping you realized.
Does anyone still use the phrase "piano bass" anymore? It occurs to me that I haven't seen that term in a long and and my joke may have fallen flat.
*Sigh*
Speaking of sorghum...got any Sugar Drip seeds you can part with?
georgestrings,
Sorry, but I can't seem to find a post wherein I've used a 'cutesy name' for anyone. As it happens, my name is Grey Rollins, so I'm not the one hiding behind a cutesy name. Somehow, I doubt your last name is Strings.
AlexanderB,
It doesn't matter how low the speaker goes, the dimensions of the cabin of an average car limit the low frequency response to around 80Hz or thereabouts. (Yes, a larger vehicle like a van will go slightly lower, but the same principle holds.) Anything lower than that is not low frequency sound; it's compression, which isn't the same thing at all. Do your homework, please.
Note that this applies to the headphone scenario advanced by CL400Peavey, as well.
CL400Peavey,
You still haven't faced the fact that headphone drivers (hint: earbuds are even worse) use nearfield compression to create low end. Not being able to hear low frequencies beyond an inch or so is a pretty good indicator that you've got problems. No matter how many headphone drivers you line up, a million times zero (close enough, anyway) is still zero. And there's still that pesky Xmax problem to contend with, only moreso.
But you might be able to make a decent line tweeter array...
(Though not massless...rats...)
Well, let's see, you list Fs figures from 37-44Hz. The Eminence Omega Pro 18 has an Fs of 25Hz, which somehow you failed to list.
In an effort to save time, I'm going to cut and paste from the thread last fall, in which I covered the exact point you raise regarding Xmax:
BEGIN CUT 'n PASTE
So let's apply a little math to the problem.
Eminence has been suggested several times, so I pulled the data on two drivers, the S2010, and the S2012.
S2010, a 10" driver
Xmax = 4mm
Xlim = 8mm
Sd = 350.1 cm2
S2012, a 12" driver (there doesn't appear to be an "S" 15" driver)
Xmax = 5.2mm
Xlim = 9.8mm
Sd = 519.5 cm2
Since all specs are in the same units, we can use a simple ratio to describe the difference in cone surface area, which runs out to be ~1.484.
Since volume in dB is directly proportional to the volume of air displaced in cubic measure, we'll run each driver such that it displaces the same amount of air. I could build this up in stages, but let's cut to the chase and take the 10" to Xmax at 4mm. Mind you, we're at the limit, but not yet over it. To produce the same volume of air displacement, the 12" driver is just under 2.7mm transit.
So far, so good.
Now, let's push the 10" to 6mm. Note that we are now past Xmax, which is the linear limit of travel, but still below Xlim, which is the damage-limited excursion limit. This is not unusual behavior. People do it every Saturday night and the driver lives to play again.
For the same volume in dB, the 12" driver is now running at 4.04mm, still comfortably within Xmax. In other words, it is still within its linear range.
"Well, so what?" sez you.
"Well, everything!" sez I.
What happens when you pass Xmax? If the signal is a pure sine wave, the tops of the peaks will begin to flatten (probably asymmetrically, but we'll leave that for another day). What's that mean in real life? It means that if you do spectral analysis on the wave form, you'll find that you're losing your fundamental; replacing it with harmonics. Mostly second harmonic, which means that your low E at 42Hz is being replaced with 84Hz.
However, the 12" driver is still within Xmax, so it's still producing your low E at 42Hz. That's why larger diameter drivers sound "lower" or "deeper" than smaller ones, even if they have identical frequency response curves--which, of course, they generally don't.
At this point, the fellow in the front row, who's already been bouncing in his seat, jumps to his feet and shouts, "But, you idiot, no one uses a single 10"! All you have to do is add another 10" and your cone excursion cuts in half, thus restoring linear travel to the cone, assuming the same volume in dB." After which outburst, he slams back into his seat, arms crossed and a self-satisfied smile on his face.
Ah, but anything you can do, I can do. So if you add another 10" driver, I'll add another 12", which brings us back to the same math I've outlined above.
Someone posted above that his 10" driver will do 30Hz. Of course it will. But at what volume level? Heck, you can even produce DC on a 10"...don't believe me?...place a 1.5V battery across the driver's terminals. See the cone lurch forward? Congratulations, you've just produced DC. (Incidentally, that click you heard wasn't the DC--human ears don't work that low--it was the harmonics resulting from what is essentially the leading edge of a square wave.)
END CUT 'n PASTE
As for your math regarding swept volume by cones, there's a bit of an error: The CB158 Xmax is 4.8mm, not 0.8mm. That kinda changes the math a bit. I calculate a max linear volume closer to 411cc. Then add more 15s, as necessary.
I don't remember posting anywhere that cabinet design wasn't an important part of the equation. Can you point out this phantom post that you're attempting to refute? If you're going to set up straw men, this thread is going to get murky, fast. I can't afford the time to unravel made-up problems.
And speaking of cabinet design, I have here a wooden stake. Let's see if I can drive it through the heart of your argument.
According to WinISD, an optimal cabinet (vented) for the Kappalite 3010LF (your choice of 10", not mine) is -3dB ca. 68.9Hz. An optimal cabinet (also vented) for the CB158 is -3dB ca. 42.9Hz.
All right, let's have a show of hands. Who doesn't think that 26Hz difference is significant? Anyone...anyone? After all, it's only the difference between the low E (okay, E1 = 41.2Hz, F1 = 43.6Hz, let's be generous and say F1), and the fundamental of C#2 (69.3Hz, A string, 4th fret).
Anyone?
In today's vernacular, I'd call that an epic fail.
Please do your homework. Please?
phillybass101,
Agreed that bass players are just part of the scenery for a large percentage of the audience. I work on the assumption/hope (possibly forlorn) that people will respond on a visceral level, perhaps without even realizing it, to bass tone that is appropriate to the music. If you take a slap bass sort of tone with a lot of high frequency energy and put it in a 12-bar blues or folk music environment, it's not going to work well for most people.
It wouldn't be all that hard to imagine an experiment where a band played identical sets to identical audiences and the bass tone was varied from night to night. Then quiz the audience members as they left as to how they felt about the music. Average results over as many nights as necessary to smooth out the results. Might be interesting.
JimmyM, et. al.,
Please understand that the above driver/cabinet analysis is not to be construed as an attack on your chosen tone or equipment. If you're happy with your tone (and not making outlandish claims...), then I'm happy with your happy, if you catch my drift. Should we ever chance to meet, we'll go out for a beer and talk about pretty girls, awesome women, or hot chicks...your choice. Oh, all right, if you insist, we can talk about bass for a few minutes before getting back to women.
Okay, it's taken me almost 3 hours to write this post (a lot of it doing CL400Peavey's math homework for him, and who knows how many other posts have been added in the meantime) and take care of my sick young 'uns. That's not practical for me. I reserve the right to let poorly thought out posts stand from here on in, because people can say damnfool things faster than I can do the math to prove them wrong.
Grey
Duke21,
The above-mentioned kids are watching Cars to keep 'em quiet. It occurs to me that it might be useful to have massless race cars. (Going to need to separate weight and mass, still need traction.)
chadds,
I was joking, as I'm hoping you realized.
Does anyone still use the phrase "piano bass" anymore? It occurs to me that I haven't seen that term in a long and and my joke may have fallen flat.
*Sigh*
Speaking of sorghum...got any Sugar Drip seeds you can part with?
georgestrings,
Sorry, but I can't seem to find a post wherein I've used a 'cutesy name' for anyone. As it happens, my name is Grey Rollins, so I'm not the one hiding behind a cutesy name. Somehow, I doubt your last name is Strings.
AlexanderB,
It doesn't matter how low the speaker goes, the dimensions of the cabin of an average car limit the low frequency response to around 80Hz or thereabouts. (Yes, a larger vehicle like a van will go slightly lower, but the same principle holds.) Anything lower than that is not low frequency sound; it's compression, which isn't the same thing at all. Do your homework, please.
Note that this applies to the headphone scenario advanced by CL400Peavey, as well.
CL400Peavey,
You still haven't faced the fact that headphone drivers (hint: earbuds are even worse) use nearfield compression to create low end. Not being able to hear low frequencies beyond an inch or so is a pretty good indicator that you've got problems. No matter how many headphone drivers you line up, a million times zero (close enough, anyway) is still zero. And there's still that pesky Xmax problem to contend with, only moreso.
But you might be able to make a decent line tweeter array...
(Though not massless...rats...)
Well, let's see, you list Fs figures from 37-44Hz. The Eminence Omega Pro 18 has an Fs of 25Hz, which somehow you failed to list.
In an effort to save time, I'm going to cut and paste from the thread last fall, in which I covered the exact point you raise regarding Xmax:
BEGIN CUT 'n PASTE
So let's apply a little math to the problem.
Eminence has been suggested several times, so I pulled the data on two drivers, the S2010, and the S2012.
S2010, a 10" driver
Xmax = 4mm
Xlim = 8mm
Sd = 350.1 cm2
S2012, a 12" driver (there doesn't appear to be an "S" 15" driver)
Xmax = 5.2mm
Xlim = 9.8mm
Sd = 519.5 cm2
Since all specs are in the same units, we can use a simple ratio to describe the difference in cone surface area, which runs out to be ~1.484.
Since volume in dB is directly proportional to the volume of air displaced in cubic measure, we'll run each driver such that it displaces the same amount of air. I could build this up in stages, but let's cut to the chase and take the 10" to Xmax at 4mm. Mind you, we're at the limit, but not yet over it. To produce the same volume of air displacement, the 12" driver is just under 2.7mm transit.
So far, so good.
Now, let's push the 10" to 6mm. Note that we are now past Xmax, which is the linear limit of travel, but still below Xlim, which is the damage-limited excursion limit. This is not unusual behavior. People do it every Saturday night and the driver lives to play again.
For the same volume in dB, the 12" driver is now running at 4.04mm, still comfortably within Xmax. In other words, it is still within its linear range.
"Well, so what?" sez you.
"Well, everything!" sez I.
What happens when you pass Xmax? If the signal is a pure sine wave, the tops of the peaks will begin to flatten (probably asymmetrically, but we'll leave that for another day). What's that mean in real life? It means that if you do spectral analysis on the wave form, you'll find that you're losing your fundamental; replacing it with harmonics. Mostly second harmonic, which means that your low E at 42Hz is being replaced with 84Hz.
However, the 12" driver is still within Xmax, so it's still producing your low E at 42Hz. That's why larger diameter drivers sound "lower" or "deeper" than smaller ones, even if they have identical frequency response curves--which, of course, they generally don't.
At this point, the fellow in the front row, who's already been bouncing in his seat, jumps to his feet and shouts, "But, you idiot, no one uses a single 10"! All you have to do is add another 10" and your cone excursion cuts in half, thus restoring linear travel to the cone, assuming the same volume in dB." After which outburst, he slams back into his seat, arms crossed and a self-satisfied smile on his face.
Ah, but anything you can do, I can do. So if you add another 10" driver, I'll add another 12", which brings us back to the same math I've outlined above.
Someone posted above that his 10" driver will do 30Hz. Of course it will. But at what volume level? Heck, you can even produce DC on a 10"...don't believe me?...place a 1.5V battery across the driver's terminals. See the cone lurch forward? Congratulations, you've just produced DC. (Incidentally, that click you heard wasn't the DC--human ears don't work that low--it was the harmonics resulting from what is essentially the leading edge of a square wave.)
END CUT 'n PASTE
As for your math regarding swept volume by cones, there's a bit of an error: The CB158 Xmax is 4.8mm, not 0.8mm. That kinda changes the math a bit. I calculate a max linear volume closer to 411cc. Then add more 15s, as necessary.
I don't remember posting anywhere that cabinet design wasn't an important part of the equation. Can you point out this phantom post that you're attempting to refute? If you're going to set up straw men, this thread is going to get murky, fast. I can't afford the time to unravel made-up problems.
And speaking of cabinet design, I have here a wooden stake. Let's see if I can drive it through the heart of your argument.
According to WinISD, an optimal cabinet (vented) for the Kappalite 3010LF (your choice of 10", not mine) is -3dB ca. 68.9Hz. An optimal cabinet (also vented) for the CB158 is -3dB ca. 42.9Hz.
All right, let's have a show of hands. Who doesn't think that 26Hz difference is significant? Anyone...anyone? After all, it's only the difference between the low E (okay, E1 = 41.2Hz, F1 = 43.6Hz, let's be generous and say F1), and the fundamental of C#2 (69.3Hz, A string, 4th fret).
Anyone?
In today's vernacular, I'd call that an epic fail.
Please do your homework. Please?
phillybass101,
Agreed that bass players are just part of the scenery for a large percentage of the audience. I work on the assumption/hope (possibly forlorn) that people will respond on a visceral level, perhaps without even realizing it, to bass tone that is appropriate to the music. If you take a slap bass sort of tone with a lot of high frequency energy and put it in a 12-bar blues or folk music environment, it's not going to work well for most people.
It wouldn't be all that hard to imagine an experiment where a band played identical sets to identical audiences and the bass tone was varied from night to night. Then quiz the audience members as they left as to how they felt about the music. Average results over as many nights as necessary to smooth out the results. Might be interesting.
JimmyM, et. al.,
Please understand that the above driver/cabinet analysis is not to be construed as an attack on your chosen tone or equipment. If you're happy with your tone (and not making outlandish claims...), then I'm happy with your happy, if you catch my drift. Should we ever chance to meet, we'll go out for a beer and talk about pretty girls, awesome women, or hot chicks...your choice. Oh, all right, if you insist, we can talk about bass for a few minutes before getting back to women.
Okay, it's taken me almost 3 hours to write this post (a lot of it doing CL400Peavey's math homework for him, and who knows how many other posts have been added in the meantime) and take care of my sick young 'uns. That's not practical for me. I reserve the right to let poorly thought out posts stand from here on in, because people can say damnfool things faster than I can do the math to prove them wrong.
Grey
G, I know about the kids home sick thing. The fever goes away and comes back and then there's the dysentery......
Sorry I missed the joke! Yep no Sorghum, LOL. I only play a farmer on TB, I mean TV.
We good.
Sorry I missed the joke! Yep no Sorghum, LOL. I only play a farmer on TB, I mean TV.
We good.
Grey,
Sorry about the sick kids.
Nope, you just failed to actually read what I posted. I was refering to the Legend 1518. Not the CB158. I am sorry you were confused and put work into a different driver.
My point is, is that you cant look at a single spec like diameter and make a claim on the driver as a whole.
Once again you didnt read the two drivers I was referencing. I call your reading comprehension an epic fail. As far as your "optimal" cab, what is optimal about it? The only reason I would want to use a 3010LF is to meet some form factor requirement. A very good, small cab can be designed around a 3010LF that will handle a low B.
For my money, I use a cab loaded with 3015LF's. Its what I prefer when considering form factor, tone, and volume output. Thats not to say I couldnt get what I want out of 3010LF's, I would just need a whole lot of them. Thats to make up for total volume out put, not tonal depth.
Sorry about the sick kids.
But its not zero, so enough of them and you would achieve some volume. Im not saying its the most economical way of doing things, but add up enough small drivers and you make up for their lack.
I didnt fail to list it, I was pointing out that you are comparing drivers from different lines. I presented one example of where your claim on Fs is false.
So you present one case where your claim on Fs holds, but if there is one example, like the one I posted, against it, then your claim is not absolute
Nope, you just failed to actually read what I posted. I was refering to the Legend 1518. Not the CB158. I am sorry you were confused and put work into a different driver.
My point is, is that you cant look at a single spec like diameter and make a claim on the driver as a whole.
Once again you didnt read the two drivers I was referencing. I call your reading comprehension an epic fail. As far as your "optimal" cab, what is optimal about it? The only reason I would want to use a 3010LF is to meet some form factor requirement. A very good, small cab can be designed around a 3010LF that will handle a low B.
For my money, I use a cab loaded with 3015LF's. Its what I prefer when considering form factor, tone, and volume output. Thats not to say I couldnt get what I want out of 3010LF's, I would just need a whole lot of them. Thats to make up for total volume out put, not tonal depth.
Grey, I don't like having cutesy names applied to me. I find it unnecessary and somewhat insulting. I would not even dream of doing the same to you.
Where does all this hostility come from? I've read the whole thread and don't see one person being offensive.
My Acme cabinets are capable of reproducing an open B string at stage volumes. It's one of the things I find magical about Andy Lewis' designs. It's wonderful experience hitting that open B and letting it ring while the drummer does his "train wreck" at the end of a song.
