Is there realy any need for huge rigs?

[Metal Matt]

See those people? The ones who aren't on the stage? The ones with no instruments? Actually, you probably don't.

We'll call them 'the audience' and they'll fast disappear if that's your attitude. That has nothing to do with being (seemingly) ridiculously loud, or too quiet, or brilliant, or lousy, or having good gear, or genre.

Good job taking what I said way out of context to make me sound like some *******... Here, let me put it back into context, in case I made it unclear...

We don't make music for anyone else but ourselves. Of course like every other band, we play shows to share our music with people and we're always stoked when people enjoy it, but when they don't, we simply don't care. We've had a few people tell us we need guitars, or that we need vocals, and we listen, but we're not going to do any of that until it's what WE want to do. If someone doesn't like our music, the idea of a band that's nothing but drums and bass, or the volume we play at... well the door isn't too far away, we're certainly not going to change anything about our band just to please them.

 

[Sufenta]

Good job taking what I said way out of context to make me sound like some *******... Here, let me put it back into context, in case I made it unclear...

We don't make music for anyone else but ourselves. Of course like every other band, we play shows to share our music with people and we're always stoked when people enjoy it, but when they don't, we simply don't care. We've had a few people tell us we need guitars, or that we need vocals, and we listen, but we're not going to do any of that until it's what WE want to do. If someone doesn't like our music, the idea of a band that's nothing but drums and bass, or the volume we play at... well the door isn't too far away, we're certainly not going to change anything about our band just to please them.

Not sure I really want to step into this hornet's nest.....but what the heck. I see your point that making a major change to one's band just because some random patron thinks you should is not sensible, BUT I also think its foolish to not listen to and at least consider what Joe The Plumber has to say about your music, or stage show, or whatever. There is nothing that psychs me out on a gig more than seeing patrons up and leave when we start a show. Should I take it personally? Probably not. But I enjoy it when I see people enjoying our shows. It may just be a particular song in a set that people just don't seem to get, in which case we may shelve that song and re-work it or just ditch it all together. I play for me, but I also play for playing out and the more people the better. Like it or not, the latter requires playing what and how people want.

 

[Metal Matt]

Not sure I really want to step into this hornet's nest.....but what the heck. I see your point that making a major change to one's band just because some random patron thinks you should is not sensible, BUT I also think its foolish to not listen to and at least consider what Joe The Plumber has to say about your music, or stage show, or whatever. There is nothing that psychs me out on a gig more than seeing patrons up and leave when we start a show. Should I take it personally? Probably not. But I enjoy it when I see people enjoying our shows. It may just be a particular song in a set that people just don't seem to get, in which case we may shelve that song and re-work it or just ditch it all together. I play for me, but I also play for playing out and the more people the better. Like it or not, the latter requires playing what and how people want.

I'm no hornet, more like a teddy bear that gets angry sometimes... and mauls someone...

"But I enjoy it when I see people enjoying our shows."

So do we. I hope I didn't make it sound like we don't. hahaha We've had one show where I could tell that most of the people there were not into it. But we had a small handful of people banging their heads and enjoying it, and at that point, the people there who don't like us, don't matter. We always listen to peoples suggestions, but unless it's something we really want to do, we're not doing it.

"It may just be a particular song in a set that people just don't seem to get, in which case we may shelve that song and re-work it or just ditch it all together."

See, we wouldn't, unless we didn't like the song. We had a song that we never played live or anything and we ended up ditching it because it just didn't seem right. If a whole crowd came up to us and told us that one of our favorite songs to play was no good, we'd listen and all, but as long as we like it, it stays.

And to get things back towards the topic at hand, we wouldn't change anything about our live show either... We had a venue book us, and when we showed up with the normal 3 amps and 5 cabs, the venue owner asked me at least three times "do you really need all that". We weren't about to give this crowd what we felt would be a crappy show by only using part of my rig, so I politely but firmly told the guy..."this is what we use, all the time..." After the show he expressed interest in having us play again... Time will tell if he meant it though.

PS

I'd like to take back the teddy bear comment. I want to be a kick ass penguin.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

If you are playing large venues or outside without PA support you need a big rig for sure. However, most bar bands could easily do with 2 112s and a 500w micro. I use a LMII and two UL112s and rarely have the vol past 10:00. Last weekend I played outside with that rig for 4 hours and I think it was a hair past 10:00 and plenty loud. I think alot of bands play too loud.

 

[vin*tone]

I have a friend who plays in a very loud, very heavy band. He is an awesome bassist and vocalist but he's not really up with the latest and greatest in amps. He's very proud of his big rig- 1x15, 4x10 and what he thinks is a massively powerful 400 watt (yes I know).... Peavey Mk 3. I didn't have the heart to tell him that he's actually cranking a 250 watt rig- he really doesn't need to know.

 

[Metal Matt]

I have a friend who plays in a very loud, very heavy band. He is an awesome bassist and vocalist but he's not really up with the latest and greatest in amps. He's very proud of his big rig- 1x15, 4x10 and what he thinks is a massively powerful 400 watt (yes I know).... Peavey Mk 3. I didn't have the heart to tell him that he's actually cranking a 250 watt rig- he really doesn't need to know.

But is he loud enough for his band?

I've noticed a lot of vintage amps are louder than their same wattage, modern counterparts. I saw a band once, guitar player had something like a 200 watt tube amp, running into 2 4x12's. Bass player was just as loud with his old 200 watt solid state Peavey amp and his Carvin 8x10 with two blown speakers. My Sunn amps are each 200 watts solid state and seem to be a lot louder than any modern 200 watt amp I've heard. Don't know if there's anything to it, but just something I've noticed.

 

[Sundogue]

...And to get things back towards the topic at hand, we wouldn't change anything about our live show either... We had a venue book us, and when we showed up with the normal 3 amps and 5 cabs, the venue owner asked me at least three times "do you really need all that". We weren't about to give this crowd what we felt would be a crappy show by only using part of my rig, so I politely but firmly told the guy..."this is what we use, all the time..." After the show he expressed interest in having us play again... Time will tell if he meant it though.

I agree. Part of the thrill of a live rock band is the sheer volume and power of the music. It's like a hurricane sweeps in and blows everyone in the same direction. Rock music played at light volumes is called "Muzak". Perhaps some of you have heard it in elevators.

Now for me, onstage I want to feel my bass as well as hear it. I don't play bass to listen some tinny 'AM radio' sound coming out of an earplug (and before anyone chimes in with how great IEM's are, they don't thump your body) or some little combo sitting on a stool. I want something that hits me in the chest and I can feel in the floor (just like the crowd wants from us). Why should they get to enjoy it, but not me?

Most of our gigs are just in large bars or ballrooms. But crowds want rock music loud. They don't want it to be elevator music.
I guess we're just not into the polite music here in the Midwest. Personally I think the resurgence of love for loud rock music is the backlash of political correctness.

"Oh, excuse me. Did my loud music offend you? Then why are you still here?"

 

[Jack]

Good job taking what I said way out of context to make me sound like some *******... Here, let me put it back into context, in case I made it unclear...

We don't make music for anyone else but ourselves. Of course like every other band, we play shows to share our music with people and we're always stoked when people enjoy it, but when they don't, we simply don't care. We've had a few people tell us we need guitars, or that we need vocals, and we listen, but we're not going to do any of that until it's what WE want to do. If someone doesn't like our music, the idea of a band that's nothing but drums and bass, or the volume we play at... well the door isn't too far away, we're certainly not going to change anything about our band just to please them.

I didn't mean to take it out of context, that's honestly how I took it.

Your subsequent posts have cleared it up though, I see where you're coming from now.

 

[joeydavidson]

My ideal rig would be x2 of everything I already have, I really like the idea of having two 610hlf's side by side, of course I can't afford it or transport it but it would be good.

 

[excane]

Of course a huge rig is a necessity.....when you have other "stuff" to compensate for

 

[sowder]

You don't really need a rig at all. I went the Geddy route and either bring some smaller PA support or go strictly DI to the house system. I'm a much happier man now for it too.

 

[Metal Matt]

I agree. Part of the thrill of a live rock band is the sheer volume and power of the music. It's like a hurricane sweeps in and blows everyone in the same direction. Rock music played at light volumes is called "Muzak". Perhaps some of you have heard it in elevators.

Now for me, onstage I want to feel my bass as well as hear it. I don't play bass to listen some tinny 'AM radio' sound coming out of an earplug (and before anyone chimes in with how great IEM's are, they don't thump your body) or some little combo sitting on a stool. I want something that hits me in the chest and I can feel in the floor (just like the crowd wants from us). Why should they get to enjoy it, but not me?

Most of our gigs are just in large bars or ballrooms. But crowds want rock music loud. They don't want it to be elevator music.
I guess we're just not into the polite music here in the Midwest. Personally I think the resurgence of love for loud rock music is the backlash of political correctness.

"Oh, excuse me. Did my loud music offend you? Then why are you still here?"

+1,000

It all depends on what your goals are with your music. For the guy playing bass in a cover band, looking to make money doing "gigs", playing so loud that you might not be asked back to a venue isn't an option, so I understand that completely. For me, I've always considered music more art than entertainment which factors in a lot to my attitude of not caring if people DON'T like what my band is doing. My stoner rock/doom band is never going to make enough money to live on, and we'll never play giant venues, and we're content with that. We're playing because it's what we love doing. And even though we're pretty care free about all of it, we still have a certain idea about how we want our live show to be, and I wouldn't ever let a venue owner or anyone tell me that I couldn't use all my equipment or play as loud as I do because I feel it would be screwing over the crowd, by not giving them what they expect from us.

A lot of people will say there's no need for a huge rig because of modern PA technology. But I hate the idea of handing over my sound to someone I don't know. So whenever we're faced with a larger venue, I'll use everything I use now, as loud as it is now, and use the PA to fill in what my rig can't. Some people wouldn't dare question a soundguy, or tell him that they want things a certain way... I will.

 

[georgestrings]

as i said i usually get a rash of crap for having to have two channels on their boards......when we use the FOH PA

as far as working in the real world....1 channel is dirty and the other is clean (for the most part)....once we get the levels set....i control the mix from my end from song to song....works/functions just fine....in the real world

You do realize that a majority of pro PAs are mono - not stereo, right??? So, you could accomplish basically the same thing with say, a GBE 750 and blend both tube and SS preamps - and not have to carry two amps and sets of cabs - nor use 2 channels of PA... You *probably* don't get a "a rash of crap for having to have two channels on their boards" - you *probably* get it because it doesn't make sense to go to those lengths, when it doesn't make a difference as far as how it sounds out front... Whatever works for you, I suppose - but I'm just sayin'...



- georgestrings

 

[oreopithecus]

I've always found that I can put more cans of PBR on top of a big rig than on a small one. Of course, the old pleated Kustom 2x15 presents it's own unique problems as a stage coaster...

The sound guys at the bigger venues around here always make me use my rig as a glorified stage monitor, which is fine with me!

 

[Tehrin Cole]

Back when I was coming up,if you DIDN"T have a big rig,you weren't considered a"real bass player"!I personally owned an Ampeg SVT head,with 2 huge cabinets that contained 4(count 'em),...4 15" speakers,per cabinet!These days,given the wonderful advances of today's technology,a small,or medium rig will do just fine.These days,I play through a Kustom Groove Bass 210C.It runs 600 watts of power,it has 2 10"Eminence speakers,a Fostex compression horn,a 9 band graphic EQ,a tube preamp section,a solid state power amp section.As I've previousliy stated,today's technology has spawned some small,but amazing products,and I feel that a big rig isn't always a necessity,...but it's always nice to walk into the venue you're about to perform in,and see one there.Also,it's nice to see a resurgence of the old-school big rigs,coming back onto the market:Ampeg SVT(with the original 8 10's cabinet),Acoustic 360,370,Sunn.To quote Stanley Clarke:Here's to the "Lords of the low frequency",we supply,...the GROOVE! Peace.

 

[JimmyM]

You do realize that a majority of pro PAs are mono - not stereo, right??? So, you could accomplish basically the same thing with say, a GBE 750 and blend both tube and SS preamps - and not have to carry two amps and sets of cabs - nor use 2 channels of PA... You *probably* don't get a "a rash of crap for having to have two channels on their boards" - you *probably* get it because it doesn't make sense to go to those lengths, when it doesn't make a difference as far as how it sounds out front... Whatever works for you, I suppose - but I'm just sayin'...

Nah, two channels in the PA es muy bueno. Then, not only can the bassist have a clean and dirty channel, but so can the soundman, and he can mix them to work more effectively in the PA. Or you can run a DI and a mic on an amp and blend the two for extra sweet clean yet aggressive sweetness. Every now and then a soundman will give you crap about not having a channel for you to do that, though, so make sure he knows ahead of time about your needs.

 

[Eight_Stringer]

OK, FWIW.

Giged since the late 70's. NO pro however done my share of gigs...All my rigs were built by me, amps and cabinets. First rig was 2 by 15" times two with 2 by 12 times one.
Amps were in total 1000W, bipolar transistor, wound out at medium sized gigs. Sounded like rubbish and due to power, LOUD rubbish.
Amps clipped harshly and never sounded right in a band situation
Still learing bass at that time so all in all pretty ordinary outcome.

Small pub gigs, 50watt all valve ( 2 by 6CA7' or EL34's )head with 2 by 12" ported cabinet. Sounded soooo good. Amp ran so hot the wax melted out of the transformers and the jack plug was too hot to remove at gig end.... the volume control was calibrated in good and great only, that rig never sounded bad. Based on that outcome ditched the 1KW SS amp stack for 2 by 200watt all valve heads on 2 by 15 on each head. Bingo real Bass sound. Never Di'ed only miced up and into front of house.

One aspect that is not canvased these days is the notion that smaller loudspeakers give better upper frequency responce, while true it is not the full story. A 15" speaker will reproduce ALL the notes or frequencies from a bass. What happens is that the beam angle of these higher notes restricts in "angle" or coverage, the larger the speaker cone becomes. By this i mean if you mic at the axial centre of a 15" speaker you wil have all the notes present though the spectral power of these notes may be not optimum. I never use a speaker different than the a single 15" these days, with micing to the cone centre or just off centre to balance the spectral power. This works for me and is based on engineering principles, it may not suit all others though the opinion from others may be in complete opposition to what i say here. While as Bass player my skill can be questioned my background is Electrical and Electronic Engineering.

Regards to all.

 

[ljazz]

This is some pretty interesting dialogue. So I'll add some perhaps meaningless stuff to it.

The best bands I have ever played with have their rehearsal and stage volumes under wraps..... Personally, I think I play better when I'm not having to pick and sort everything out through a wall of mud, and I honestly believ it's the same for most musicians (no matter how much they think they need all the volume). When I play, I'll take as little as possible..... nothing worse than having to rush home from my day job, go to coach two kids baseball teams, get home, clean up, load up, set up for the gig, and then have to reload at 2 in the morning..... knowing I have to be up a 5am to get back to work. Not having to schlep about over 150 lbs. of cabs, and an 80 lb head makes it a bit easier to do.

I saw Blind Melon and Sound Garden open up for Neil Young (Booker T and the MG's were his band) back in the 90's at Pine Knob. Sound Garden had a huge wall of amps and cabs, and after hearing them, there is no doubt in my mind that most, if not all of it was used. You could hear the stage volume overpowering the FOH. It was absolutely the worst live sound I ever heard. Neil came out, and played using only 3 vintage Deluxes stratigically placed about the stage. Duck played a SVT with 810 cab. They sounded incredible (and I don't even like Neil).

I guess "my sound" is not as important as how I contribute to the band's sound.

Ljazz

 

[Bass'ofdiablos]

I'm running a Trace Elliot RAH1000 and the BFC cab. it is big and my car doesn't like it but even at a lower level in a smaller pub it sounds clear, clean and you can hear the true voice of the bass. I was lucky to get this rig and it's something i never thought i'd own. i think that a 2 or 4 X10" and a 15" is plenty and easier to transport. Don't worry about the sound guy if he think's your rig's too big that's fine don't let it stop you getting/ using one.

 

[38bass]

Big rigs are like doctors, they're not needed until they are actually needed (and then, if you don't have one, you're screwed).

For the record, a soundman who gets whiny when bassists arrive with full stacks is being a stupid douche unless said bassists actually order him to help unload or move the stuff. None of his buisiness, he is there to mix the stage and room levels to the staisfaction of the band and the management, not to pass judgement. A lot of guys who say they're not cool about something so trivial as this usually are overly stubborn in their opinions and don't work with the band to get THEIR sound: ie. bad soundmen.

+2

'Zactly !