Is this 2000W amp claim deliberately misleading?

[agedhorse]

There are a number of players who like your amps, so you can feel good about your choices. There are also a number of players who want the clean, detailed sound of their instruments (as witnessed by a recent thread here on this subject). I'm one of those guys - no pedals, no effects. I want my sound clean and dynamic.

Yes - you do specify power ratings @ 10% distortion - but how many watts does your amp provide at a more reasonable distortion level? As you know, a solid state amp at 10% distortion is hitting the end of its power envelope and is about go into fuzz tone clipping.

Like our tube amps, players choose because of the way we do it. What do you consider reasonable, whatever number that is you should look for an amp that makes YOU happy. The Subway (power amp only) is 0.008%THD up to about 500 watts ("RMS") which is about the threshold that the output tube emulation circuitry begins to inject the harmonic distribution that WE feel best represents our legacy products. This can not be bypassed as it's an integral part of the design, just like the tube power amp based products.

I think you would be better off choosing a different product, based on the numbers alone you would be happier with your decision I'm sure.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Like our tube amps, players choose because of the way we do it. What do you consider reasonable, whatever number that is you should look for an amp that makes YOU happy. The Subway (power amp only) is 0.008%THD up to about 500 watts ("RMS") which is about the threshold that the output tube emulation circuitry begins to inject the harmonic distribution that WE feel best represents our legacy products. This can not be bypassed as it's an integral part of the design, just like the tube power amp based products.

I think you would be better off choosing a different product, based on the numbers alone you would be happier with your decision I'm sure.

Nice

 

[matante]

That's very kind, but I'm a not so new bass player who's ended up with a Mesa M6 and a DG M900 as his two amps.

This thread was much more borne of my shock at the barefaced cheek of the ad, and wondering whether I was right to be feeling indignant, or whether these guys were "well within their rights" and I just need to generally lower my expectations of what manufacturers put out about their products.

It's not the first time I've come across something like this. Trickfish do the same without mentioning their amp ratings are "peak" on their ads. This just seemed more blatant.

I started a thread a couple of years ago complaining that Hartke was putting "500 WATTS" in big letters on their combo amps which were not really 500 watt amps RMS. The responses I received were mostly critical of me for being too technical and saying that bass players don't know/care about peak vs RMS watts. "Just play the thing." This thread has a very different tone.

 

[Al Kraft]

Power amp in (exclusive of the preamp), below the threshold of output emulation modeling (around 500 watts) would be less than 0.008% THD up to the 4th harmonic of the highest note on bass) the but IMO this is a useless number even though it might be "impressive". We don't design around impressive numbers, we design around tone and feel because most players play their amps rather than oooh and ahhhh over the spec sheet.

This pretty much nails it for me and I would expect many other bass players. I understand specs as well as the next guy, but two identically spec'ed amps (e.g. X Watts into Y Ohms with Z THD) often sound quite different depending on how they were designed and voiced. I know this isn't a great example, but looking at just specs I'd imagine an Aguilar TH500 and GK MB500 don't look terribly different, but we'd all know the difference when you play them.

It also seems odd to me that so many people look down on SS bass amps while extolling the tone and feel of real of tube heads, yet we end up being concerned about paper specs that have SS heads emulating tube amp behaviors. If you want or need a 100% clean amp with literally no measurable distortion at max power and a ruler flat output from 20Hz to 20 KHz, I don't think you'll find that in most bass amps, or at least not ones that sell very well. Before I get flamed for saying that, I do get that some people do their voicing through pre-amps and effects and only want or need a power amp like I described.

 

[McFarlin]

Shouldn't everything be rated in headroom? Or is it headrooms?

I want whatever gives me the most headrooms.

 

[b_carville]

This crap has been going on for a long time!
In the 60's Vox (solid state American ones) used to advertise the Super Beatle model(by the way,the Beatles never used them) as "240 watts peak power"! They might have been 80 to 100 RMS.
Fender was sneaky too! While they didn't come out and say peak power they would pair the 1960's 40-45 watt Bassman head with a four & a half foot speaker cabinet.Under the auxiliary A.C. plug on the back of the amp head(ment to be an extension cord type feature) they had a little metallic sticker that said "200 watts".Of course stupid young shmoes like me thought that ment the amp was 200 watts.
I'm convinced it was done as a marketing ploy!

 

[ERIC31]

Only 2000 watts?? Why, this sub-100-dollar car amp puts out more than that...

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LMAO!!!!!! Me and my brother used to to call those KINGSFORD amps after the charcoal brand. Cheap amps would heat up so fast you could bbq on them!!

 

[agedhorse]

This crap has been going on for a long time!
In the 60's Vox (solid state American ones) used to advertise the Super Beatle model(by the way,the Beatles never used them) as "240 watts peak power"! They might have been 80 to 100 RMS.
Fender was sneaky too! While they didn't come out and say peak power they would pair the 1960's 40-45 watt Bassman head with a four & a half foot speaker cabinet.Under the auxiliary A.C. plug on the back of the amp head(ment to be an extension cord type feature) they had a little metallic sticker that said "200 watts".Of course stupid young shmoes like me thought that ment the amp was 200 watts.
I'm convinced it was done as a marketing ploy!

Yup, so much of a marketing ploy that they simply eliminated the aux receptacle to prevent damage from users who tried to plug a room heater into the back for cold rehearsal rooms

Of course, it was the receptacle was rated for a 200 watt load...

 

[Jeff Scott]

Shouldn't everything be rated in headroom? Or is it headrooms?

I want whatever gives me the most headrooms.

This will help you get what you want.

 

[fourstringburn]

Peak power or RMS ratings,

It's all relevant but can be misleading if you don't understand it or if the manufacturer's spec's don't specify which one it is.

Big numbers are more attractive to the un-informed.

I look at a Sweetwater ad and the spec's say " total power" 2000 watts.

That to me is subjective and raises a red flag that the 2000 watt rating is probably correct but could be some kind of peak power based on non-real world tests. This is good for marketing.

This amp looks like a Behringer product so that makes me suspicious.

 

[JimChjones]

Ultimately though we are just getting back to "watts are not a measure of volume".

But I have every confidence that even if the industry managed to agree to standardise an actual volume measurement then someone would find a way of advertising ''more representative" numbers that were a lot bigger than the standard ones.

 

[JW56789]

I think I'll just think of it as 2000 whats?

I'm sure there are guys that buy and use them and are happy as clams, but this sort of 'spec-gamesmanship' is going to surely go on until some gov't consumer regulation that's not in place currently would force everyone to publish from the same tests to present a level playing field of information to guys like me . . . . that wouldn't understand it anyway ! ! ! At least it would be fun to watch the arguments over the audible difference between one decimal place difference.

 

[gumtown]

If I wanted to buy a new amp and saw the Behringer not knowing anything about it, I would search T.B. and find out Watts up.

 

[seamonkey]

Demand the truth from manufacturers you buy from. It's your money.
Get it in writing.
Manyfacturers need to get together and cooperate on standards that their customers can actually compare. It's not going to happen through governments as MI amps are a niche market. No two MI amp makers actually agree. RMS is not an agreed on "standard". But as soon as the agree they will start to deviate with some woo that says why their's is better than another manufacturer. The ones that tell the truth will be more trusted and word travels fast these days.

 

[Richard Martin]

Manyfacturers need to get together and cooperate on standards that their customers can actually compare.

They did this one time. I'm not sure of the exact time but prior to the late 60's everything used to be rated in peak watts. Then suddenly and for whatever reason, I was a kid and have no idea why, everybody started rating amps in RMS. It stayed that way until the proliferation of junk amplifiers started washing ashore from China.

I don't need anybody to tell me that I'm not going to get a high quality 2000 watt RMS amp for $150. I'm not even going to get a high quality 2000 peak watt amp for $150. If you see a Peavey 12" floor monitor for $200 guess what? It ain't gonna sound very good.

 

[bobyoung53]

A newbie recently asked why is this Bugera 2000W amp so much cheaper and more powerful than other 500W amps?

BV1001T | Head Amplifiers | Bass | Bugera | Categories | MUSIC Tribe

Answer: because the manufacturer is using a "peak" watt measure and not the more usual RMS number.

Nowhere are they showing on their ad they are using the "peak" number. Given that most manufacturers use RMS, shouldn't Bugera simply be making clear that this is a 2000W "peak" rating somewhere on the ad and not leaving it "buried" in the manual?

What do you guys think?

I used to regularly see 1000 watt boom boxes out here in Peru, in fact there is an 1800 watt boom box in the living room that my brother-in-law bought.

 

[basscapes]

Into what load?

Two Bagels or a TV Dinner...

 

[C_Becker]

This kind of BS is just another reason to never buy anything Behringer

 

[Rick James]

prior to the late 60's everything used to be rated in peak watts. Then suddenly and for whatever reason, I was a kid and have no idea why, everybody started rating amps in RMS. It stayed that way until the proliferation of junk amplifiers started washing ashore from China.

RMS was always the standard. When some companies started using peak in the '60s the FTC cracked down, requiring them to use RMS. In the '80s the Reagan administration emasculated the FTC and ever since then it's been a free for all. That was long before amps started coming out of China.

 

[McFarlin]

This will help you get what you want.

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Yes

Instead of all these figures, the packaging should have between one and eleven Max Headroom images. But first someone needs to figure out the watts to Headrooms conversion. And there should probably separate charts for tube watts and SS watts.