Is this 2000W amp claim deliberately misleading?

[agedhorse]

I've written here before that nearly all bass amp specs are pretty close to meaningless. No one states clearly what the distortion rating is - or quotes output numbers given at 10% or higher distortion knowing that the power envelope of the amp is nearly depleted.

If manufacturers were completely honest, they'd publish power vs distortion curves and state precisely what the conditions their amps are measured under and what they'll do in real-use conditions - - power @ 8 ohms nominal; power @ 4 ohms nominal; power at 2 ohms nominal - - all stated with the level of distortion and for how long they'll deliver whatever level of output they claim.

This will never happen as long as there are buyers who only seem to care about what companies claim their amps will put out - even if it's only for half a waveform and for a few milliseconds.

Sorry, but this is not true of the majority of higher quality products. I have been supplying this information for years, and so have some of the biggest names in the business as well.

Since so many players seem to be interested in the overdrive characteristics and tube like tone of their amplifiers, and with the large number of players who play overdrive pedals that see distortion numbers in the range of 10%-30%, shouldn't the amp be rated as it's intended to be used? With the distortion spectrum I tend to use, 10% is considered to be very mild overdriven tone by the many players who have actually played the product. That's why I have standardized on 10% distortion, since the overdrive management is built into the amp itself. Of course the amp must be dead bones reliable when driven regularly this way (which of course it is), and it's thoroughly discussed in the product manuals. I don't just talk the talk on this subject, I've been walking this walk for many successful years too.

 

[Jeff Scott]

My toaster oven says 1500 watts!

Into what load?

 

[edro]

Watts, ohms...these and other measures are named after the engineers who pioneered the theory and measurements they represent. So I guess there needs to be a new measure, a "Behringer." "My amp puts out 2000 Behringers!" Very impressive.

Now, I would buy an amp that put out "2000 Agedhorses!"

This ain't new at all....


I've used the phrase 'Soundesign Watts' since decades back because of cheap ass stereos, amps, etc., that invented their own wattage calculations.... Genuine plastic stereos that blasted out eleventy-two ziggawatts per channel into the single nuclear proof 6x9 car speaker in each four foot tall genuine Dollar Store furniture grade thin oatmeal wood cab with authentic imported highly figured wood grain vinyl sticky kitchen shelf paper covering.... Yeah buddy!


Beringers/BugeraWatts/UliWatts
Calulation Process:

a. Pt (wall socket power diss) + Po_p-p (RMS/.707 * 2)
b. Round up to the nearest thousand
c. Add 16 (Bama championships)
d. Multliply by 1.34 for no apparent reason

 

[JonnyAngle]

Sorry, but this is not true of the majority of higher quality products. I have been supplying this information for years, and so have some of the biggest names in the business as well.

Since so many players seem to be interested in the overdrive characteristics and tube like tone of their amplifiers, and with the large number of players who play overdrive pedals that see distortion numbers in the range of 10%-30%, shouldn't the amp be rated as it's intended to be used? With the distortion spectrum I tend to use, 10% is considered to be very mild overdriven tone by the many players who have actually played the product. That's why I have standardized on 10% distortion, since the overdrive management is built into the amp itself. Of course the amp must be dead bones reliable when driven regularly this way (which of course it is), and it's thoroughly discussed in the product manuals. I don't just talk the talk on this subject, I've been walking this walk for many successful years too.

I have to side with Gizmot. It's truly meaningless to display a wattage without the THD%. I think all amps should show the spectum of wattage and its respective THD%.

If someone is looking to play keyboard through a bass amp, they may not be satisfied with 10% THD, which you would be using for your specs.

 

[bearfoot]

It is BS, but it's not hard to divide by 4, which I think gets you in the ballpark. It's around a 500 watt amp.
My subwoofer claims to be 1600 watts. Same kind of thing.

 

[edro]

I could be off here but I think Bugera got their watts calculator from TC Electronics after Behringer purchased TC.

You could possibly be correct... I use a TCE BG250 cab (rigged with a jack after the head blew, not under any real load, just on) with my Peavey MiniMax 500 as a corner of the den practice rig. If that BG cab speaker will handle 250 real watts I'm Iron Man... I just don't believe it.... I keep the MiniMax loooow...

 

[Paulabass]

Behringer (Bugera) uses advertising company watts. Three ad execs stood there and said "Looks like 1500 watts to me", and another added "Hell no, look at that logo, that's a 2000 watt logo if I ever saw one".

 

[Richard Martin]

In the words of the esteemed Judge Judith Sheindlin:
“If it doesn't make sense, it's usually not true.”
Quote by Judge Judy Sheindlin: “If it doesn't make sense, it's usually not true.”

 

[esoxhntr]

So it's 2000 Ultra Watts, Ultra Watts being louder than either tube watts or SS watts.

Ultra watts = (tube watts + SS watts) x 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510 etc.

 

[Paulabass]

^ Are you suggesting it's as loud as pi? Gonna need me one of those.

 

[aldaa]

A newbie recently asked why is this Bugera 2000W amp so much cheaper and more powerful than other 500W amps?

BV1001T | Head Amplifiers | Bass | Bugera | Categories | MUSIC Tribe

Answer: because the manufacturer is using a "peak" watt measure and not the more usual RMS number.

Nowhere are they showing on their ad they are using the "peak" number. Given that most manufacturers use RMS, shouldn't Bugera simply be making clear that this is a 2000W "peak" rating somewhere on the ad and not leaving it "buried" in the manual?

What do you guys think?

If you think this is bad, you should see low to low-mid budget car audio brands. 4000 WATT 8 INCH SPEAKER! 10,000 WATT MONO AMP, 150 DOLLARS!!!!

 

[swarfrat]

mW = Marketing Watts.

 

[bass.slinger]

Into what load?

What is the ohm rating for toast?

And...what is the best toast for metal?

 

[BogeyBass]

C'mon It's Ultra Watts guys!!

Has what musicians need

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Yay! Another let's trash Bugera/Behringer thread! Boy do they come out of the woodwork!

 

[BadExample]

I have to side with Gizmot. It's truly meaningless to display a wattage without the THD%.

He does state the THD.

 

[agedhorse]

Into what load?

Rye...

I have to side with Gizmot. It's truly meaningless to display a wattage without the THD%. I think all amps should show the spectum of wattage and its respective THD%.

If someone is looking to play keyboard through a bass amp, they may not be satisfied with 10% THD, which you would be using for your specs.

It's a bass amp, it's designed specifically for bass. If you are looking for a keyboard amp, well I can't help you there (even though I'm a keyboard player). And, the THD is in fact specified as 10% (some of this is intentionally generated as part of the two different tube emulation networks because many tube amps AND PREAMPS are well over 1% or 2% or 5% before clipping.

Now, if you wanted to use the amp as a power amp, and you were that concerned about THD, the output tube emulation network adds about one half of the rated THD starting a couple of dB before power amp clipping (ironically, just like a "typical" tube power amp) but this too is very intentional because it's responsible for not only the tone, but more importantly the FEEL that bass players are looking for. Keyboard players??? not so much.

If you wanted more information, a waterfall plot of THD versus frequency versus level (this is a 3 dimensional graph) would show more (it's also proprietary and I'm not going to share it anyway) but most folks have enough difficulty understanding and interpreting the real information from a standard 2 variable plot that I wouldn't even begin to expect any real value (except to a designer seeking information that might be useful copy the amp's specific performance).

Power amp in (exclusive of the preamp), below the threshold of output emulation modeling (around 500 watts) would be less than 0.008% THD up to the 4th harmonic of the highest note on bass) the but IMO this is a useless number even though it might be "impressive". We don't design around impressive numbers, we design around tone and feel because most players play their amps rather than oooh and ahhhh over the spec sheet.

 

[BadExample]

Yay! Another let's trash Bugera/Behringer thread! Boy do they come out of the woodwork!

View attachment 3216078

Easy target my brother, and because Uli opened himself up for it

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Easy target my brother, and because Uli opened himself up for it

and yet he still hasn't learned his lesson and switched to using real numbers. I think that might make him look like a liar....?
Anyway, this subject with this brand has been BEATEN TO DEATH by TB. Can't we just please move on?

 

[Gizmot]

Sorry, but this is not true of the majority of higher quality products. I have been supplying this information for years, and so have some of the biggest names in the business as well.

There are a number of players who like your amps, so you can feel good about your choices. There are also a number of players who want the clean, detailed sound of their instruments (as witnessed by a recent thread here on this subject). I'm one of those guys - no pedals, no effects. I want my sound clean and dynamic.

Yes - you do specify power ratings @ 10% distortion - but how many watts does your amp provide at a more reasonable distortion level? As you know, a solid state amp at 10% distortion is hitting the end of its power envelope and is about go into fuzz tone clipping.

Rye...



It's a bass amp, it's designed specifically for bass. If you are looking for a keyboard amp, well I can't help you there (even though I'm a keyboard player). And, the THD is in fact specified as 10% (some of this is intentionally generated as part of the two different tube emulation networks because many tube amps AND PREAMPS are well over 1% or 2% or 5% before clipping.

Now, if you wanted to use the amp as a power amp, and you were that concerned about THD, the output tube emulation network adds about one half of the rated THD starting a couple of dB before power amp clipping (ironically, just like a "typical" tube power amp) but this too is very intentional because it's responsible for not only the tone, but more importantly the FEEL that bass players are looking for. Keyboard players??? not so much.

If you wanted more information, a waterfall plot of THD versus frequency versus level (this is a 3 dimensional graph) would show more (it's also proprietary and I'm not going to share it anyway) but most folks have enough difficulty understanding and interpreting the real information from a standard 2 variable plot that I wouldn't even begin to expect any real value (except to a designer seeking information that might be useful copy the amp's specific performance).

Power amp in (exclusive of the preamp), below the threshold of output emulation modeling (around 500 watts) would be less than 0.008% THD up to the 4th harmonic of the highest note on bass) the but IMO this is a useless number even though it might be "impressive". We don't design around impressive numbers, we design around tone and feel because most players play their amps rather than oooh and ahhhh over the spec sheet.