Is this 2000W amp claim deliberately misleading?

[JRA]

re: the "major manufacturers" = IME: they've all made dogs, and they've all made usable pieces...regardless of marketing schemes/lies.

for me: it's about the price vs. performance. some pieces are just too expensive...some pieces are just too cheap. i see this amp as possibly being a nice piece. if you have one, i hope it works for you! the rest of us should do our research and read the fine print!

 

[agedhorse]

Note that the FTC regulations applied to domestic (home) audio products and not musical instrument products.

 

[DavesnothereCA]

A newbie recently asked why is this Bugera 2000W amp so much cheaper and more powerful than other 500W amps?

BV1001T | Head Amplifiers | Bass | Bugera | Categories | MUSIC Tribe

Answer: because the manufacturer is using a "peak" watt measure and not the more usual RMS number.

Nowhere are they showing on their ad they are using the "peak" number. Given that most manufacturers use RMS, shouldn't Bugera simply be making clear that this is a 2000W "peak" rating somewhere on the ad and not leaving it "buried" in the manual?

What do you guys think?

~
I have not yet read the so far 5 pages of posts, and may be duplicating what has already been said, but unfortunately more and more amp makers have stooped to stretching the truth like this these days.

BTW, IIRC, the first topic which I launched here (more than a year ago) was a question as to whether RMS Watts had become a thing of the past, touching on the same issue as this thread.

Also IIRC, the ensuing discussion got warmer than some of the heatsinks of certain makes and models of power amps.

How I regard today's advertised amplifier wattage ratings is like this :

If an amp's rating does not specify RMS Watts, then it is NOT RMS Watts.

In that case, it is PEAK (2x RMS), or worse, possibly PEAK to PEAK (4x RMS).

And any company not specifying RMS when their amps' ratings ARE RMS should fire their marketing dept for not bragging when bragging is required.

Of course, also to be considered is whether the quoted number is for both channels of a stereo amp combined, and into what impedance of load per channel.
~
EDIT - to fix humourous typo 'PEAL to PEAK'

 

[DavesnothereCA]

shastaband said: ↑
My toaster oven says 1500 watts!

Into what load?

~
4 slices, multigrain
~

 

[KJMO]

~
I have not yet read the so far 5 pages of posts, and may be duplicating what has already been said, but unfortunately more and more amp makers have stooped to stretching the truth like this these days.

BTW, IIRC, the first topic which I launched here (more than a year ago) was a question as to whether RMS Watts had become a thing of the past, touching on the same issue as this thread.

Also IIRC, the ensuing discussion got warmer than some of the heatsinks of certain makes and models of power amps.

How I regard today's advertised amplifier wattage ratings is like this :

If an amp's rating does not specify RMS Watts, then it is NOT RMS Watts.

In that case, it is PEAK (2x RMS), or worse, possibly PEAL to PEAK (4x RMS).

And any company not specifying RMS when their amps' ratings ARE RMS should fire their marketing dept for not bragging when bragging is required.

Of course, also to be considered is whether the quoted number is for both channels of a stereo amp combined, and into what impedance of load per channel.
~

Huh. I've wondered where the 4x numbers come from. What is PEAL to PEAK? You know, if the bugera is actually a 500w RMS amp, it's priced well considering. If they were honest, it would give the amp an air of respectability that would appeal to me, but I guess they probably sell more this way?

Anyway, I just have to say products with power ratings that are specific do give a pretty good indicator of what you can expect performance-wise. For example, at sweetwater they list my lowly crown xls 1002 as having:

• Watts/Side @ 8 ohms:215W
• Watts/Side @ 4 ohms:350W
• Watts/Side @ 2 ohms:550W
• Watts Bridged:1100W @ 4 ohms, 700W @ 8 ohms

No distortion listed, but I immediately knew what to expect when I looked at this, and nothing in my experience has been a surprise as I've used this over several years. I hooked up one 8ohm cab to one side, and I'll be darned if it wasn't fairly anemic, which is what you'd expect. Bridged into 4ohms, its way more than I have ever needed, which makes sense. At any rate, I think decent numbers are really helpful, and I'm puzzled that anyone would say there's no way to put a number on power that is helpful. RMS at percent THD is a good starting point, I would think.

 

[DavesnothereCA]

If I wanted to buy a new amp and saw the Behringer not knowing anything about it, I would search T.B. and find out Watts Up.

~
I do plan to use that !
~

 

[DavesnothereCA]

Huh. I've wondered where the 4x numbers come from. What is PEAL to PEAK? You know, if the bugera is actually a 500w RMS amp, it's priced well considering. If they were honest, it would give the amp an air of respectability that would appeal to me, but I guess they probably sell more this way? ....

~
Or, they could quote both the RMS watts and the P2P (figure which I suspect is their current methodology).

Who knows ?

Doing so might work for them, if the units are reliable.
~

 

[agedhorse]

Anyway, I just have to say products with power ratings that are specific do give a pretty good indicator of what you can expect performance-wise. For example, at sweetwater they list my lowly crown xls 1002 as having:

• Watts/Side @ 8 ohms:215W
• Watts/Side @ 4 ohms:350W
• Watts/Side @ 2 ohms:550W
• Watts Bridged:1100W @ 4 ohms, 700W @ 8 ohms

No distortion listed, but I immediately knew what to expect when I looked at this, and nothing in my experience has been a surprise as I've used this over several years. I hooked up one 8ohm cab to one side, and I'll be darned if it wasn't fairly anemic, which is what you'd expect. Bridged into 4ohms, its way more than I have ever needed, which makes sense. At any rate, I think decent numbers are really helpful, and I'm puzzled that anyone would say there's no way to put a number on power that is helpful. RMS at percent THD is a good starting point, I would think.

If you were to look at the owner's manual or spec sheet for the XLS series, you would find a lot more depth to the specs than what's on the Sweetwater site, including THD, bandwidth, etc.

 

[DavesnothereCA]

If you were to look at the owner's manual or spec sheet for the XLS series, you would find a lot more depth to the specs than what's on the Sweetwater site, including THD, bandwidth, etc.

~
And I would expect no less from Crown - and certain other brands.
~

 

[Gizmot]

There are a number of players who like your amps, so you can feel good about your choices. There are also a number of players who want the clean, detailed sound of their instruments (as witnessed by a recent thread here on this subject). I'm one of

Like our tube amps, players choose because of the way we do it. What do you consider reasonable, whatever number that is you should look for an amp that makes YOU happy. The Subway (power amp only) is 0.008%THD up to about 500 watts ("RMS") which is about the threshold that the output tube emulation circuitry begins to inject the harmonic distribution that WE feel best represents our legacy products. This can not be bypassed as it's an integral part of the design, just like the tube power amp based products.

I think you would be better off choosing a different product, based on the numbers alone you would be happier with your decision I'm sure.

Thank you - I agree completely.

 

[matante]

If you were to look at the owner's manual or spec sheet for the XLS series, you would find a lot more depth to the specs than what's on the Sweetwater site, including THD, bandwidth, etc.

I'm looking at the owners manual for the XLS series now and I see nothing that says RMS or peak or anything about how they're measuring the watts.

 

[DavesnothereCA]

Like our tube amps, players choose because of the way we do it. What do you consider reasonable, whatever number that is you should look for an amp that makes YOU happy. The Subway (power amp only) is 0.008%THD up to about 500 watts ("RMS") which is about the threshold that the output tube emulation circuitry begins to inject the harmonic distribution that WE feel best represents our legacy products. This can not be bypassed as it's an integral part of the design, just like the tube power amp based products....

~
Even though being unfamiliar with the Mesa legacy products, I would view 500 RMS Watts as a generous amount of clean power all on its own (and I gather that there is more power to be enjoyed after the emulation kicks in).

The only issue would be whether I could budget for such a bass amp, or for one of the Genz Benz heads which have been cropping up used occasionally lately here in Ontario Canada in online ads
~

 

[agedhorse]

I'm looking at the owners manual for the XLS series now and I see nothing that says RMS or peak or anything about how they're measuring the watts.

Good question. If you look at the foootnote, you will see a reference to average power, which is based on RMS voltage and current. When we use the term Power "RMS" it's shorthand for the following: Pavg=Vrms squared/Rload. Crown has changed their specs to actually use more correct terminology, but it's still the same number.

 

[agedhorse]

~
Even though being unfamiliar with the Mesa legacy products, I would view 500 RMS Watts as a generous amount of clean power all on its own (and I gather that there is more power to be enjoyed after the emulation kicks in).

The only issue would be whether I could budget for such a bass amp, or for one of the Genz Benz heads which have been cropping up used occasionally lately here in Ontario Canada in online ads
~

500 watts "RMS" is a lot of power, but if it were available at 0.008%THD most players here would find it quite sterile and not very interesting. That's why the preamp design, with it's various (and somewhat mild by some standards) is so important, and that it's really necessary to take each amp as a complete system with all parts interacting.

As an example, the Darkglass 900 rates their amp at 20%THD, but IMO that may very well represent their particular take on their amp as a whole. They too have a pretty strong legacy of overdrive and distortion tones, that's one of the things that some players are looking for. Can't deny their choices, and their success, as I know plenty of players using their OD pedals with our amps. For those players, it's a necessary part of their sound, doesn't matter one bit what the distortion numbers are.

If every amp was "zero" distortion, no character, life would be awfully boring for the other 95%. It's no different than choosing your bass based on tone and feel, otherwise you would all be playing the same "boring" bass, right?

 

[ThisBass]

Think about it: why are electric heaters and slo-cookers and coffeemakers rated at 1835W?
Because that's the most you can pull from a 15A circuit.
When you rate your product with an output watt rating that exceeds the available input (nevermind the conversion losses...) it is not a mere oversight - it is a decision.

With audio program material its common practice to excceed those (average) ratings by factor 2..3.
Actually its possible to run a 6000W rms power amp with full power on 15A circuit.

 

[agedhorse]

With audio program material its common practice to excceed those (average) ratings by factor 2..3.
Actually its possible to run a 6000W rms power amp with full power on 15A circuit.

Yes, full rated power on an audio signal with ~12dB of Crest factor.

 

[ThisBass]

I have to side with Gizmot. It's truly meaningless to display a wattage without the THD%. I think all amps should show the spectum of wattage and its respective THD%.

If someone is looking to play keyboard through a bass amp, they may not be satisfied with 10% THD, which you would be using for your specs.

That's a delicate subject cause some MI amplifiers such as tube heads may show already noticeable THD at about 1/3 of (rms rated) full output power which (almost always) is caused by push/pull crossover distortion. In contrast some other amps may show a mild saturation at Vcc thus there was another but different kind of THD with different affect to the sound and feel to the player.

5% of THD may mean the amplifier clipps at Vcc (no more of headroom) but it also could mean there was THD caused by push/pull crossover distortion yet the amplifier output still may provide some dynamic headroom.

 

[ThisBass]

There are a number of players who like your amps, so you can feel good about your choices. There are also a number of players who want the clean, detailed sound of their instruments (as witnessed by a recent thread here on this subject). I'm one of those guys - no pedals, no effects. I want my sound clean and dynamic.

I think most of all players don't notice (random) clipping. At some content some clipping can help to get a fuller tone out of the amplifier yet the amplifier "feels" clean and still can provide "loudness" headroom.

If you want the sound really clean 100% and want to have dynamic with real headroom then, ok lets assume 20dB crest factor for the bass guitar signal and then add +3dB headroom for the amplifier, so in this case just to push 30 Watt rms average into the cabinet would demand for an amplifier of 3000 Watt rms output power.

Yes - you do specify power ratings @ 10% distortion - but how many watts does your amp provide at a more reasonable distortion level? As you know, a solid state amp at 10% distortion is hitting the end of its power envelope and is about go into fuzz tone clipping.

If an MI amplifier is capable to provide even and odd order harmonics at overload range then its valid to "expect" more of musical loudness power versus an SS amplifier that clipps the very hard way and generates only odd order harmonics at overload range.

We could specify power ratings for 1% or 3% or 5% or 10% (or anything else) but the total number of THD tells nothing about the harmonics arangement and dynamic feel.
We could state that 10% of THD that contains of even and odd order harmonics might sound more musical than 3% of pure odd order harminics but, then just now we would try to start a discussion about different sounds and different (personal) flavour

 

[Gizmot]

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. The point I started to make earlier is that an 800 watt amp with 10% distortion isn’t the same as an 800 watt amp with .1% distortion. Although the difference in acoustic output may not be huge, it is perceptible and it can give you a little more headroom when pushing hard. Although I only use it a few times a year, I have a 5,200 watt Powersoft K3DSP that delivers a boatload of dynamics and is barely breathing even when playing loud.

 

[JimChjones]

And then start considering what nominal amp power I require if I want 110db at 0.1%THD , and what rated power you need to deliver the same actual volume at 15%THD, and watts get even more meaningless... I fear there will never be a definitive comparison, and there will always be room for those who want to play fast and loose...
It doesn't help, of course, that a section of the public want exaggerated numbers for willy waving purposes...