Jaco clip causing some controversy

[teleharmonium]

but if you're tuned into a player's abilities or style or approach and it puts you on a Path, that's a fairly sacred form of musical discovery. Jaco has clearly had that effect on many of us.

I agree.

I do have to say that I don't necessarily see his influence as a positive one on other players. I'm also very clear that those players would often not see a lot of my influences as positive ones, so I figure that's about different values about music and life.

It's good when we can recognize that these values really do vary quite a lot, and that what matters to us personally is subjective. I try to live by that.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Who said anything about hate ?

Who said that was directed at you? That was my story, which is all I can know.

 

[Norwegian Bass]

I have no issue with teleharmonium's posts, I think the last four (especially) explained his position clearly and straightforward. I do not agree with his position, but it's easy to see where he's coming from and why he says what he does. The only "criticism" I could send his way is that he's "guilty of the same things he accuses others to be" but that is something I can say about myself too.
So this song IMO applies to all of us, I think :

But one thing I do agree with him about is the stuff about the bass media and also sometimes what goes around here; the issues do get blown up; sometimes to a hilarious extent. That's cool and fun; unless one actually starts to believe all of it, you know?
I remember a quote from Anthony Hopkins in an interview where he said "Once you start taking things as deeply important; then you're doomed to a miserable life" or something to that affect. And he talks about how there are movie stars that are afraid to work, because of their image, and that they're a little neurotic with the bodyguards and all of that and he goes on to say "That's no way to live", and if there's something I would subscribe to it's probably that! And the better way is to "just show up, and do it".

 

[blue4]

I didn't see any angst or hate in teleharmonium's post. I do see a lot of overreacting in the posts that followed.

I do agree with him somewhat, or at least think he presents a good argument in the following two points

"My point is that the generalized music audience tends to not share those value judgements that are prevalent among the more craft, peer-comparing group of the larger community of bass players. Those guys buy all the magazines and populate boards like this to a disproportionate degree, because they are the ones seeking more information and doing the comparing and chatting, so their values are catered to. And that's all fine and fair and it makes perfect sense, but it leads to a distorted perception of music and of the audience."

"I argue that in the world of music at large, for listeners and players, there are more influential players than Jaco. To me Aston Barrett, Larry Graham, and Paul McCartney would be in that category. They were each associated with musical trends that were worldwide in scope and had lasting impacts in many other styles of music."

 

[Tampabass]

what matters to us personally is subjective..

On this you are correct.
It's quite clear that there are a lot of things you don't like about Jaco's playing. That's fine.

But anyone taking the long view, thoughtfully looking at the role of the bass guitar, how it has evolved, and who has been instrumental in its evolution, can understand that several individual players have had enormous impact on subsequent generations of bass players.

James Jamerson's lines were unlike any in R&B, and the same goes for John Entwistle and rock 'n' roll. Those guys got there first, and both had an impact on how bass players and others viewed the role of the bass.

Jaco, in a much more dramatic fashion, reinvented what the bass guitar could do as a solo/lead instrument. Stanley Clarke, working at the same time and in roughly the same genre (jazz fusion), did something similar. They both opened the door to a new way of thinking about the bass guitar's possibilities -- they gave permission, in a manner of speaking, for the bass guitar to be way out front.

Whether you like Jaco's playing (or Stanley's) or fusion (or whether you disagree with the out-front role for the bass) is irrelevant; that's subjective.

The objective fact is that Jaco and Stanley brought real innovations to bass playing, and have had a large impact on bass players, particularly but not limited to those who play jazz or fusion.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Who said that was directed at you? That was my story, which is all I can know.

No harm meant. Just trying to keep it light (but within my truth).

 

[bucephylus]

I think that may be in the eye of the beholder

What I meant is that your drive to make your points is making your arguments sound irrational.

well, that's a crude approximation. Tacuma for example can be as busy as anybody, but I think he's great. It's about being appropriate to the tune and sensitive to the interplay. Jaco's playing when he isn't soloing sometimes (not always, so don't exaggerate this in your next post) comes across like a person that is in a conversation, but is formulating his next statement in his mind instead of listening to what the other person is saying.

No doubt JP was a much more "present" player than most. However, I would encourage you to listen CAREFULLY to Hejira from that same video as the OP (could not find it on YT, sorry) and then consider whether he is overplaying the vocals and not listening to them. In fact JP made a big thing about hearing the whole mix and NOT getting in the way of the main line. There is a difference between being busy and getting in the way. It's also OK not to like a player who plays busy lines; but that does not mean it is necessarily in the way. Those are things that have been majorly confused in this thread, IMO.


To tell you the truth, I don't really like getting involved in such an intensive discussion one way or the other. Although the guy was certainly a big influence for me in the past, like 20 years ago, I am so far past needing to ape someone else's playing or defend their glory or whatever that I should probably just stop posting here. The thing that stirred me was what I perceived to be inaccuracies in some of the impressions I am reading here. That's all.

your translation is flawed

Well, you brought up free jazz, and that got me thinking about some of the better performances I've heard; such as Sam Rivers, Dave Holland, and Barry Altschul. I don't know whether you would call that stuff simpler or more complicated; so, I kind of cut it short. If you meant Ornette in particular, then Roy responded with a pretty hip Ornette cover; but, since I can't tell how you conceive of free jazz, I didn't know how to describe it. To me, it is actually a whole lot more complex than the Weather Report stuff; but, that's a whole different discussion.

I didn't say that. It's not a question of "keeping up". Metheny is aware of an influenced by the whole continuity of jazz including the parts Jaco skipped over. And it's not like Jaco has to like everything; I'm not criticizing him on this score; the reason I bring it up is that it shows that this narrative other people want to believe of Jaco's playing as an objective musical advance (as opposed to a bass playing advance) is challenged by the facts.

Again, PM and JP were gigging relatively straight ahead jazz together in their early 20's; and PM has been quoted as saying they "came up together." How you get from that to JP skipping over some kind of awareness of jazz influences or something does not line up with my understanding. JP spent a lot of time on Parker's library etc etc.

It's hardly a conspiracy.

When you hang out on a board like this or read magazines oriented toward bass players you obviously get a different perspective than you would elsewhere. It's the same with guitar or with any number of other hobby interests. And that's fine as long as everyone understands that they are selecting a perspective that is not shared by others outside the bubble.

I have no idea. I haven't even seen a bass magazine in about 10 years. I don't really have time for them.

For example you might get the impression that fusion is a big and popular form of music, rather than being the miniscule part of the music business that it actually is, or you might take it for granted that an expensive, high power rig that has been much discussed here in the last year is what you need to play bar gigs in your town. Having that rig wouldn't hurt you, but when you go to the bar gigs and most of the other players have non boutique to mid level gear, you can see the difference in perspective.

I don't even know what the music business is anymore; it is now so scattered. I'm auditioning for a modern country act on Wednesday and will try to balance with my Big Band commit. Don't really care any more what genre I play in, mostly want to play with talented and cool people.

Those are just a couple of common examples, I'm not making value judgments about relatively obscure music or expensive gear, both of which I like myself.

Not sure what that has to do with the thread. I hope you are playing with an instrument that suits you well.

 

[teleharmonium]

But anyone taking the long view, thoughtfully looking at the role of the bass guitar, how it has evolved, and who has been instrumental in its evolution, can understand that several individual players have had enormous impact on subsequent generations of bass players.

James Jamerson's lines were unlike any in R&B, and the same goes for John Entwistle and rock 'n' roll. Those guys got there first, and both had an impact on how bass players and others viewed the role of the bass.

Jaco, in a much more dramatic fashion, reinvented what the bass guitar could do as a solo/lead instrument. Stanley Clarke, working at the same time and in roughly the same genre (jazz fusion), did something similar. They both opened the door to a new way of thinking about the bass guitar's possibilities -- they gave permission, in a manner of speaking, for the bass guitar to be way out front.

Whether you like Jaco's playing (or Stanley's) or fusion (or whether you disagree with the out-front role for the bass) is irrelevant; that's subjective.

The objective fact is that Jaco and Stanley brought real innovations to bass playing, and have had a large impact on bass players, particularly but not limited to those who play jazz or fusion.

Put that way, I can't disagree. My disagreements were about more glib and sweeping claims.

To take it back to the larger argument (and to try and be succinct, which clearly does not come naturally to me in writing), music is the main thing. Bass playing is well below that in the hierarchy of importance.

And I'm not saying this isn't already obvious to you, but yet, it's something that guys tend to lose sight of. Men like to tinker on things and steadily work on things and compare themselves to others, and after you do that for a while you start to think that it's about those details. It's not.

If you recognize you have this tendency, you can compensate for it, kind of like when you realize that you play faster when you feel the adrenalin rush from an impending change in a tune, and that you can compensate for it by listening for the tempo in a different way and being conscious of this feeling. Only by balancing out that reaction can you have all choices at your disposal in that moment (in that example those would be playing steady despite the influence, or slowing, or going ahead and using that emotion by speeding up).

I do believe that attention and concentration are zero sum games and that if you're thinking about your mental construct of your self, you're not focused on what is happening in the moment. All of my best playing comes when I am the least self conscious. That to me is what lots of different kinds of people mean when they say they felt like a vessel that music flowed through. What I am saying is that seeing yourself primarily with the identity of being a bass player and in comparison to other people or preferences is an avenue for self consciousness to come into your playing.

Playing the bass requires only physically playing a bass and responding to some musical context (or creating it entirely on your own). That's all that is required. It is not necessary to have an intrinsic interest in bass playing as if it was an isolated factor. You don't have to let your choice of instrument influence your musical tastes and preferences and you can choose how much of that (if any) you need in your life. If you can avoid that, you're in a better position to judge how things come across to other people objectively, and it will lead you to different answers about what you could or should do with your time on the stage.

 

[MattStonewall]

I think it sounds delightful!

 

[Tampabass]

Playing the bass requires only physically playing a bass and responding to some musical context (or creating it entirely on your own). That's all that is required. It is not necessary to have an intrinsic interest in bass playing as if it was an isolated factor.

I don't disagree -- good point. Over time, though, I think it's inevitable that someone who plays bass will develop an interest in the art and craft of bass playing -- its major players, history, evolution, etc.

You don't have to let your choice of instrument influence your musical tastes and preferences and you can choose how much of that (if any) you need in your life.

True, too. I do believe, however, that how you approach your chosen instrument inevitably will be affected by how others have approached that instrument. Your playing doesn't exist in a vacuum, and whether or not you studied any particular bassist's playing, your playing will be affected -- maybe indirectly, maybe on a subconscious level -- by the bass players on the recordings that you have heard over the years and (again, indirectly) by the bass players who influenced THOSE players.

In that sense, there is no such thing as a "self-made" bass player, unless he or she grew up on a deserted island and was never exposed to recorded music.

 

[teleharmonium]

Again, PM and JP were gigging relatively straight ahead jazz together in their early 20's; and PM has been quoted as saying they "came up together." How you get from that to JP skipping over some kind of awareness of jazz influences or something does not line up with my understanding. JP spent a lot of time on Parker's library etc etc.

Exactly. JP sounds like he worked on bebop and hard bop, and was otherwise into funk, 60s R and B, and latin jazz and rock, when he was at the beginning of his career. Metheny on the other hand clearly had heard his share of Ornette, and Cecil Taylor, and Albert Ayler, and Sun Ra, and I'd wager he spent some time with John Cage's music back then as well.

Those guys were the same age and we're talking about the contemporary jazz scene when they were youing, but Pat's concept of jazz (as far as what made it's way into his own playing) went right up until the present, while Jaco's sounds like it made it about as far as Kind of Blue or so.

This is not an objective critique of JP. If that's what he liked, that's what he liked. Free jazz clearly has an aggressive, challenging, dark, non radio friendly, not exactly music for pleasure side of it which is totally absent from JPs music and also from the whole lighter, friendlier side of fusion and related music that he participated in. These are different styles for people who were looking for different things. If Jaco had gone in that other direction he'd have a different set of fans and probably wouldn't be a bass icon.

I'm simply saying that he was not a cutting edge jazz kind of guy, which is why certain things his fans say when they talk about him come across as overselling.

 

[teleharmonium]

No harm meant. Just trying to keep it light (but within my truth).

No problem Roy.

 

[teleharmonium]

Over time, though, I think it's inevitable that someone who plays bass will develop an interest in the art and craft of bass playing -- its major players, history, evolution, etc.

I think that's generally true now for anyone with an internet connection and some time. Probably less so in the past, though. And I sometimes like the things that people come up with before they have that information. Like Peter Hook - I sound nothing like him, but he was definitely an influence on me, and he himself is now a part of the history of the craft. But when he started playing he knew almost nothing, and says he came up with his style of playing a lot of high notes just because that's what he could hear the easiest over the drums and guitar. I suppose he played melodically simply because if you're playing in the upper range, a few supporting notes and plain roots would sound weird, but a melody will work.

So I think there is value to knowing your field and value to not knowing it (or being able to set it aside after you know it).

I have an aphorism that applies to this, among other things: "If you don't know what you're talking about, anything is possible."

I do believe, however, that how you approach your chosen instrument inevitably will be affected by how others have approached that instrument. Your playing doesn't exist in a vacuum, and whether or not you studied any particular bassist's playing, your playing will be affected -- maybe indirectly, maybe on a subconscious level -- by the bass players on the recordings that you have heard over the years and (again, indirectly) by the bass players who influenced THOSE players

I agree, but at the same time I think you have to be careful about assessing these things. It can't be done perfectly. Sometimes long after the fact people make assumptions and draw connections that just aren't how things actually happened. Like this thing happened before that other thing, therefore there is causality between them, when there could be no connection at all. Or there could be causality from other factors that did not make it into the popular narrative and are mostly forgotten.

I saw an example of this recently (elsewhere) where someone basically said that some punk band that showed a reggae influence must have gotten it from the Clash. And if you are only familiar with 5 or 10 punk bands and have a general idea of the music of the 70s, that may sound quite plausible. On the other hand if you are familiar with the facts of reggae and ska's popularity in England in real time with the music scene in Jamaica due to the colonial relationship and the number of immigrants who lived in diverse neighborhoods, you would know that there were actually lots of avenues for people to find out about it before Bob Marley was an international superstar and before the Clash did their Junior Murvin cover and started working with dub sounds on their later records.

We want to see things in a linear way that really is not how life works with the number of people on this planet. A real connection is a great thing to know about and I'm not criticizing that, but you have to watch out for assumptions and conventional wisdom which isn't detail oriented.

 

[Norwegian Bass]

Slight derail/hijack. I've never been or has ever accused anyone of being a "fanboy", but it sure looks like a lot of fun in a way. This guide, ten golden rules; is comedy gold IMO:
Invalid Link Removed
If we substitute "Sony" with "Fender" or "P-Bass" it might work for us too...

 

[Roy Vogt]

Slight derail/hijack. I've never been or has ever accused anyone of being a "fanboy", but it sure looks like a lot of fun in a way. This guide, ten golden rules; is comedy gold IMO:
Invalid Link Removed
If we substitute "Sony" with "Fender" or "P-Bass" it might work for us too...

That is pretty darn funny!

 

[krabapple]

Do you guys know the studio track? Jaco's on that too. In fact he kills on it, it's his showcase on the Mingus album. If you knew that track from the album, and were at the this show, during this tune you weren't listening to Brecker, or even, to an extent, Joni. You were listening to hear what Jaco would do.


(the mix on the clip is not great though)

 

[shwashwa]

Do you guys know the studio track? Jaco's on that too. In fact he kills on it, it's his showcase on the Mingus album. If you knew that track from the album, and were at the this show, during this tune you weren't listening to Brecker, or even, to an extent, Joni. You were listening to hear what Jaco would do.


(the mix on the clip is not great though)

exactly, when the record came out and people heard this track they went nuts. it was definitely known as a bass feature.
here it is:
.
at the time this recording was making waves, i'm sure live he turned it up a bit for the fans.
i can still remember the first time i heard that track. kind of blew my mind. just like the first time i heard lafaro on gloria's step.

 

[JimK]

Slight derail/hijack. I've never been or has ever accused anyone of being a "fanboy", but it sure looks like a lot of fun in a way. This guide, ten golden rules; is comedy gold IMO:
Invalid Link Removed

The 1st two "rules" for dealing with critics-
...right outta Alinsky's handbook.

 

[Kmrumedy]

Wow. 25 pages and counting dedicated to a single bass line created by a bass player for another artist.

 

[Tampabass]

Krabapple is right. I wonder how many of those whining about Jaco's tone and "overplaying" on this track have actually bothered listening to Joni's great "Mingus" album?