OP, the Squiers are a great deal and you can always upgrade the electronics and hardware later on if you want.
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Jazz Basses.
- Thread starter Lanzy
- Start date
I wouldn't buy a bass from Roger or any other custom building. That's not my scene. But if I did you're damn right I'd be negotiating the price. I'll never pay asking price for a guitar, or amp, or a car, etc. Just not gonna happen. It's been wildly successful for me thus far. Perhaps life is different north of the border, I don't know.
OP, my son, a very accomplished drummer, gave his friend a very basic, stock MIM Pbass when they started out playing in middle school jazz band. Yes the middle school has a very good music program, mostly due to the teacher who loves his job. My son and his friends also began a series of bands including jazz and rock, and just immersed themselves in music. The bass player went very quickly from not know squat about bass to being a super monster player, all by focusing on playing...any opportunity he could find. Practicing all the time. He never focused on other instruments. It was always about learning the fretboard, the music, and the styles. I cant believe how good he is. At 14 yrs age, they ended up being one of the youngest bands signed by a warner bros affiliate and soon began to play all over locally and in NYC. Eventually doing several US tours. What I'm saying is he didnt let what some consider limitations of an instrument hold him back. And he is a very strong player now because of his focus. I wish I could say the same about myself!
I guess I look at basses in terms of what's the range of what I can do to modify the initial sound. So if I had a one-pickup bass with flat-wound strings, I basically have a tone knob and technique (do I play closer to the neck or the bridge). Two pickups, I can blend in the bridge pickup. If I changed to brighter strings, I have another range of tones to modify. This, of course, doesn't include swapping pickups or what outputs out of the amp of choice.
I have always preferred two-pickup basses for their range. However, that doesn't mean I'm always favoring the bridge pickup for most of the songs, in fact I rarely use it unless I wanted extra "bite" (or treble) in my tone if plucking near the bridge isn't adequate.
It has occurred to me that my next bass purchase should be a P-pickup with flats to access a new range of tones since I already covered jazz-with-roundwounds and jazz-fretless-with-flats. Just not to the point it's necessary. I'll never get the "real" P-pickup with flats sound, nor an upright sound, nor the Jaco fretless sound, but as long as I can get reasonably close to my preferences I'm okay with it.
So in your case, you could simply access new tones with a string change. Or buy a new bass, anything really, and you'll have a new range of tones to sculpt regardless. Thus you might have times when some songs might sound cooler with your P-with-flats-full-tone or the J-with-rounds-favoring-the-neck-pickup.
I won't recommend anything because I have a tendency to buy cheap basses (price and quality) on purpose.
I have always preferred two-pickup basses for their range. However, that doesn't mean I'm always favoring the bridge pickup for most of the songs, in fact I rarely use it unless I wanted extra "bite" (or treble) in my tone if plucking near the bridge isn't adequate.
It has occurred to me that my next bass purchase should be a P-pickup with flats to access a new range of tones since I already covered jazz-with-roundwounds and jazz-fretless-with-flats. Just not to the point it's necessary. I'll never get the "real" P-pickup with flats sound, nor an upright sound, nor the Jaco fretless sound, but as long as I can get reasonably close to my preferences I'm okay with it.
So in your case, you could simply access new tones with a string change. Or buy a new bass, anything really, and you'll have a new range of tones to sculpt regardless. Thus you might have times when some songs might sound cooler with your P-with-flats-full-tone or the J-with-rounds-favoring-the-neck-pickup.
I won't recommend anything because I have a tendency to buy cheap basses (price and quality) on purpose.
Never underestimate the high end Squiers, dude. Never. Some of them can kick arse over MIMs
But if you play upright as well, wouldn't you just use that for the upright sound? My bass is set up as a compromise 'cause I sometimes want an "upright-ish" tone for rockabilly, and I've never even touched an upright in person. If I could play upright my electric would be used for electric tones and upright for upright situations.
Thanks. I would lke to keep it around $3oo though.
I like the VM serious and a nice used MIM would be good.
Hey someone said the same thing as me, in the adult way. Thanks man. I personally feel like older squires are hit and miss, same with MIMs, anything after 09 is usually good, but some are still duds, and some are still better then others.
Cool. Id love a basic, stock MIM.....
in all seriousness though, thanks for the story thats really cool.
Good to know.
True, but SOME MIMs play like MIAs
I could, but I'm not as skilled at upright.
Course, if i truly want an upright tone, obviously I'm going to play upright. It is such a pain to carry around and fix up all the time though.
- Sep 14, 2012
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- Reverend Guitars ; SIT Strings ; Trickfish Amplifiers ; LK Straps ; Rattlesnake Cables
For $300 I would say the Peavey FOundation or a used G&L Tribute are your leading horses... if you search for Peavey on GC's used inventory a bunch come up in the $225-300 range... If you were interested in a PJ setup I might be able to help you out... If you'd be interested in a G&L SB2 PM me and I'll see what I can do.
Coming from another former high school jazz band bassist, my advice would be to buy an instrument that will be the most suitable for your ongoing playing if that's necessary, rather than trying to suit the band. Which is to say, maybe you don't have to buy anything.
Although the P-bass is limited in its sound, you might find that different strings (sounds like you're experimenting with these already), pups, or amps/settings will produce a suitable tone, although it will never sound like an upright. In a band with horns and a full rhythm section, your tone won't stand out nearly as much as it would in a sparser combo or even a rock band, but it's still important to have a solid foundation, so it's entirely possible that you already have the bass you need. Through the course of my high school jazz band experience, I played my Mustang and then school's POS generic jazz bass and a Peavey T40 with rail pickups before settling on a Music Man. All of them sounded different, but all of them were adequate for the task at hand.
Now if you just want a Jazz or other bass to get other tones or if you like the feel of it better, that's something else entirely...
Although the P-bass is limited in its sound, you might find that different strings (sounds like you're experimenting with these already), pups, or amps/settings will produce a suitable tone, although it will never sound like an upright. In a band with horns and a full rhythm section, your tone won't stand out nearly as much as it would in a sparser combo or even a rock band, but it's still important to have a solid foundation, so it's entirely possible that you already have the bass you need. Through the course of my high school jazz band experience, I played my Mustang and then school's POS generic jazz bass and a Peavey T40 with rail pickups before settling on a Music Man. All of them sounded different, but all of them were adequate for the task at hand.
Now if you just want a Jazz or other bass to get other tones or if you like the feel of it better, that's something else entirely...
I suggest you might like to consider getting yourself a fretless jazz bass and then play it like this: Roll the front pickup all the way off, set the rear pickup at full volume and pluck up near the end of the fingerboard...NOT over the pickup. This is a VERY good electric bass sound for jazz, especially big band jazz. The rear pickup in combination with the subtle nuance of the fretless fingerboard gives a nicely detailed electric-jazz sound that gets you part-way into upright territory IMO. But here's the thing - don't try and play it like a stereotypical fretless with all that MWAH -ing and stuff. Play it like you would a fretted bass; and you must pluck away from the pickup...that is crucial if you want a good jazz sound. Oh...and using an amp with some decent headroom helps too.
Ps...In the distant past, I used an EB 3 band STINGRAY with TI flats on dozens upon dozens of jazz gigs. It sounded great !
Ps...In the distant past, I used an EB 3 band STINGRAY with TI flats on dozens upon dozens of jazz gigs. It sounded great !
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They do sound very different. A quick primer in layman's terms because I am not technical and speak largely from what layman's knowledge I have and form my ears.
Technically, P bass pickups are actually wired MUCH hotter than J pickups. Again, I am far from a technical guy, but a pickup's output is typically measured in terms of its electrical resistance i.e. its measurement in kHz or just "k" for short(kilohertz).
A typical Jazz pickup is about 7.5 kHz whereas a typical precision is about 11kHz. Naturally as you get into vintage stuff that was hand wired it can vary greatly higher or lower, and there are lots of aftermarket replacements that are intentionally wired hotter or cooler, but 7.5 and 11 are the typical fender J and P specs, respectively. That should give you an idea of the spread for starters in favor of the P bass for volume.
Now that said, there are a few very important variables at work that can shape output.
For starters, there are substantial differences in the timbre of the two basses because of the pickup construction. Jazz pickups are "single coil" whereas precision pickups are "humbucking." So the two separate pieces comprising a P pickup actually work as one single unit but they are in reverse phase of each other to cancel noise. This creates a fuller and rounder tone than a single coil pickup.
Jazz pickups are single coil which means each unit is one large unit working separately from the other. The sound is dirtier and can come off as hotter. With both pickups dimed together, the two single coil pickups actually act as a single series unit like a P bass, but the overall sound is less hot. But in short the P sound is "round" and "warm" whereas a J has more "punch" or "growl." You can hear a marked difference in the tone on the J when you go from full neck pickup with some bridge to both dimed. The sound gets more mellow like a P bass and I notice a drop off in volume, or at least how it "sits in the mix" which is the effect of a change in timbre.
Another variable is pickup height. I deliberately keep the pickups high on my Js (closer to the strings). I do this for two reasons- first, it is more comfortable to play when the pickups are closer to the strings as it keeps you from digging in too deep. Second, and more to the point of this topic, it is to get fuller output than a lower positioning affords me, owing to the pickup being less hot. If you look at the typical P bass (including mine), the pickup is set pretty low. Because 11k dialed too high can start to fart out speakers.
Finally, pickup location, i.e. how close to the neck or bridge, plays an important role in output. Remember the pickup creates sound by magnetically reproducing the vibration of the metal string. Think of the width of the vibration as the "information." The closer you get to the bridge, the less width the strings travel back and forth because they are anchored to the "witness point." If the entire neck and body were wired with pickups, same would hold true the closer you get to the nut (assuming you pluck an open string!) which is another witness point.
I believe this concept of vibraiton width is called amplitude. Think of amplitude as the information conveyed for the pickup. So there is less signal travelling through the pickup in the bridge location, and nut location all else equal. And the maximum amplitude is always exactly in between the nut and bridge. If you digramed this, a vibrating string has an elliptical shape - long and rounded, widest in the center. This is also why all guitars need a little "relief" in the neck. The neck needs to have some bow to it to give the string room to vibrate without bottoming near the 12th fret.
Anyway, P pickups are placed almost midway between the neck heel and bridge but they are placed closer to the bridge than to the middle of the string. Whereas a J neck pickup is placed closer to the neck, and thus closer to the center of the string than a P pickup. This is evident when you play a Jazz with the neck pickup soloed and compare to a P bass. It sounds almost "unbridled" in comparison because there is more amplitude in that locaiton.
Now combine these variables, and imagine the variables within the variables- string gauge, string material, player touch, wood, etc. and there are a lot of factors at work.
So what does all this mean? I don't even know but I would say timbre and psychoacoustics are certainly substantial forces at work in how the two sound different, substantially so, I would argue.
I personally think J basses are more aggressive sounding but P basses are "punchier" if that makes any sense.
Just my POV. Hope this helps.
Technically, P bass pickups are actually wired MUCH hotter than J pickups. Again, I am far from a technical guy, but a pickup's output is typically measured in terms of its electrical resistance i.e. its measurement in kHz or just "k" for short(kilohertz).
A typical Jazz pickup is about 7.5 kHz whereas a typical precision is about 11kHz. Naturally as you get into vintage stuff that was hand wired it can vary greatly higher or lower, and there are lots of aftermarket replacements that are intentionally wired hotter or cooler, but 7.5 and 11 are the typical fender J and P specs, respectively. That should give you an idea of the spread for starters in favor of the P bass for volume.
Now that said, there are a few very important variables at work that can shape output.
For starters, there are substantial differences in the timbre of the two basses because of the pickup construction. Jazz pickups are "single coil" whereas precision pickups are "humbucking." So the two separate pieces comprising a P pickup actually work as one single unit but they are in reverse phase of each other to cancel noise. This creates a fuller and rounder tone than a single coil pickup.
Jazz pickups are single coil which means each unit is one large unit working separately from the other. The sound is dirtier and can come off as hotter. With both pickups dimed together, the two single coil pickups actually act as a single series unit like a P bass, but the overall sound is less hot. But in short the P sound is "round" and "warm" whereas a J has more "punch" or "growl." You can hear a marked difference in the tone on the J when you go from full neck pickup with some bridge to both dimed. The sound gets more mellow like a P bass and I notice a drop off in volume, or at least how it "sits in the mix" which is the effect of a change in timbre.
Another variable is pickup height. I deliberately keep the pickups high on my Js (closer to the strings). I do this for two reasons- first, it is more comfortable to play when the pickups are closer to the strings as it keeps you from digging in too deep. Second, and more to the point of this topic, it is to get fuller output than a lower positioning affords me, owing to the pickup being less hot. If you look at the typical P bass (including mine), the pickup is set pretty low. Because 11k dialed too high can start to fart out speakers.
Finally, pickup location, i.e. how close to the neck or bridge, plays an important role in output. Remember the pickup creates sound by magnetically reproducing the vibration of the metal string. Think of the width of the vibration as the "information." The closer you get to the bridge, the less width the strings travel back and forth because they are anchored to the "witness point." If the entire neck and body were wired with pickups, same would hold true the closer you get to the nut (assuming you pluck an open string!) which is another witness point.
I believe this concept of vibraiton width is called amplitude. Think of amplitude as the information conveyed for the pickup. So there is less signal travelling through the pickup in the bridge location, and nut location all else equal. And the maximum amplitude is always exactly in between the nut and bridge. If you digramed this, a vibrating string has an elliptical shape - long and rounded, widest in the center. This is also why all guitars need a little "relief" in the neck. The neck needs to have some bow to it to give the string room to vibrate without bottoming near the 12th fret.
Anyway, P pickups are placed almost midway between the neck heel and bridge but they are placed closer to the bridge than to the middle of the string. Whereas a J neck pickup is placed closer to the neck, and thus closer to the center of the string than a P pickup. This is evident when you play a Jazz with the neck pickup soloed and compare to a P bass. It sounds almost "unbridled" in comparison because there is more amplitude in that locaiton.
Now combine these variables, and imagine the variables within the variables- string gauge, string material, player touch, wood, etc. and there are a lot of factors at work.
So what does all this mean? I don't even know but I would say timbre and psychoacoustics are certainly substantial forces at work in how the two sound different, substantially so, I would argue.
I personally think J basses are more aggressive sounding but P basses are "punchier" if that makes any sense.
Just my POV. Hope this helps.
You said you can play upright, IIRC. Why would you want to have a bass that sounds kind of like an upright when you HAVE an upright. I was in the same position as you, with a GL L1000 with flats (basically a super P bass) trying to cop an upright tone. It sounded good, in fact it sounded great, but that was to make up for the fact that I didn't have an upright. When I did score one, however, I started dialing in the L1000 to sound like an electric bass, and used it on charts where I found it appropriate. And then I made the super J that's in my profile pic and the L1000 went almost untouched not because it was a bad bass or anything, but because it was too tonally similar to the upright. I have LaBella flats on the L1000 which sound gorgeous but the Rotosound 66s on the jazz sound meaty and absolutely thunderous. It's not like you can't play multiple instruments in the same ensemble, if anything it'll probably get you hired/selected more. I mostly use the jazz on funk and fusion charts, but occasionally I'll play it on a swing chart if that's what I'm going for. And vice versa with the upright. A jazz bass will, depending on how you dial it in, get anything from in your face grindy to a smooth, full thump. Listen to Buddy Rich live, his bass players almost always play on electric and I don't hear anyone complaining.
But basically, I would buy a jazz bass. When you want an upright tone, you'll get it on upright. When you want an electric tone, you'll get it on electric.
But basically, I would buy a jazz bass. When you want an upright tone, you'll get it on upright. When you want an electric tone, you'll get it on electric.
Let's clear the air...
P with flats = Motown, old school finger style funk, R&B, and roots rock (especially muted with a pick). Think THE tone of the 50s-early 70s.
Does not = upright. At least not in tone, but a mute will get you close in feel.
P with flats = Motown, old school finger style funk, R&B, and roots rock (especially muted with a pick). Think THE tone of the 50s-early 70s.
Does not = upright. At least not in tone, but a mute will get you close in feel.
Turnaround
Commercial User
Them's fighting words around here partner. But I have to agree with you. If I could produce the sound of an upright on an electric I could avoid having to lug this doghouse all over. Yes I have played a PBass with flats, with tape wounds, with a mute, without a mute, all varieties of other-style basses with flats and mutes, an Ashbory and a U-bass with rubber strings. None sound like my string bass.
Maybe I'm hearing something others don't hear. Maybe they are hearing something I don't. I give up. Meanwhile I'm still lugging the doghouse when the gig needs an upright.
Turnaround
Commercial User
Not quite. Hertz are measurements of frequency, not resistance. So it's 7.5 kOhms and 11kOhms respectively.
Turnaround
Commercial User
I think you need to check your "facts". The distance from the end of the neck to the centre line of neck pickup is about 4.25" in both cases on the E and A strings.
I know you say you don't want one, but a P/J will give you a great sound that can be tailored to almost any situation, especially if you find an old Jazz Bass Special with the TBX control. Or, since you have a P, get a J. You got a doghouse if you really want that sound.
I'm curious, what does the TBX do to the bass' tone? Do you mean it makes it sound more like an upright?
