Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, you don't have to answer if this question has already been addressed, but what do you think of Jaco Pastorius and the effect he has had on the bass world since his time and passing?

My thinking is that this generation is the very first generation of bass players to come along and, if some still sound as if they are influenced by Jaco (Hadrien Feraud sounds a lot like him sometimes) this generation clearly have moved past Jaco's influence and have approached playing in different ways. It is the first group of guys since 1976 who are offering something different in their approach to bass. Before the last couple of years, practically the entire bass community played (and still plays) fretless bass, used (and are still using) harmonics, and sounded as if they came directly out of (an many be still sound as if they came out of) the Jaco Pastorius influenced group of guys. It used to burn a few of these guys up when I said this over 20 years ago, but truth is truth no matter how you feel about it. It was more true back then than it is today: many of these guys have built their careers on the back of the one singular guy who invented a way to play that provided almost the entire substance of the music that many bassists were using. They were imitators and made careers being imitators.

Imagine a race! Imagine running for, say, a mile, and when you get to the finish line, you stop and never cross it. This describes what many bass players have done; they get to the finish line and once they cross over into the area of orginality, they win the race. But most popular Jaco-imitating bass players never crossed over that last couple of inches, from being an imitator of another man's hard work into the area where the approach to playing was their own.

 

[Toronto Bassist]

I just wrote out the exercises in that BP article, in all of the listed chord types, in F. Took my three hours, and I think my head might explode, but I'm feelin good.

Now to play em.

Btw Jeff that BP exercise is GREAT! It's really helping me to see the relationships between different chord types (as well as making me really uncomfortable, which always means improvement).

Ok I think I'm gonna have to get my hands on this article. How can I get it...do they sell back issues that far?

 

[JeffBerlin]

I've been going through many of the posts from the first thread, and finally after about a week, I'm all caught up! I'm really enjoying the dialogue (even though at times I wondered if this was TalkBass or TalkMetronomes ).

Jeff, also I wanted to say that I really appreciate your openness, willingness, and patience in sharing your wisdom and experience with everyone here. I think we're all truly privileged to be able to take part in a discussion with someone of your expertise.

Anyway, in this post from the last thread http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8319063&postcount=295 , you referred to your new "standards CD". I looked on your website and on Amazon, but I couldn't find it. Is this something that will be released in the near future? That's something that I really want to hear. To my knowledge, I don't know of very many (if any) jazz standards album that was recorded by an electric bass player. I've been hoping for a long time that one of the top-tier electric bassists would release a "standards-heavy" album. In fact, since the time I was really exposed to your playing on "In Harmony's Way", I was always hoping you'd be the one to do this. Anyway, I'll really be looking out for this one if/when it comes out!

Right now I am looking for a guy to do the artwork. This is the most "live" CD I ever did. We were three guys live in a room, the sounds are a little odd, due to the way that all the frequencies kept bouncing in and out of open drum, bass and piano mikes. But, it is what it is, three guys playing together with the hope that we didn't sound like knuckleheads at the end of the day. Frankly, I am quite proud of what I played on this CD. I fixed a couple of wierdly played bass spots, but the tunes are pretty much live. When I record jazz, I play with my eyes, that is, I watch the drummer's hands and the pianist's fingers so that I can go with them during strange rhythmical moments in the music. And, nothing is stranger than the intro to "Solar". Richard Drexler decided to play the tune totally out of time. From the first chord, I was watching his hands to know when to come in. We finally all started playing in time as Richard soloed on the song. Other tunes were a little loose, a little strange, but NEVER NEVER boring or predictable. THIS is what makes for interesting recording to me.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Maybe I can get brownie points for working on a transcription for Jeff's walking line on "Oleo"

Seriously though, it's interesting...I haven't transcribed the chords yet, but it looks like there's a few neat substitutions going on...

REMEMBER THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ART AND ACADEMICA! This is not a good bass line to learn walking from. I may have had reason to play this line (I don't remember a note of what I played) but this is art, not academics. Learning walking lines correctly is way better than playing the oddly, and most often, artfully played bass line. Enjoy this, but do not regard it as important if you are learning how to play walking lines.

 

[Freddels]

Right now I am looking for a guy to do the artwork. This is the most "live" CD I ever did. We were three guys live in a room, the sounds are a little odd, due to the way that all the frequencies kept bouncing in and out of open drum, bass and piano mikes. But, it is what it is, three guys playing together with the hope that we didn't sound like knuckleheads at the end of the day. Frankly, I am quite proud of what I played on this CD. I fixed a couple of wierdly played bass spots, but the tunes are pretty much live. When I record jazz, I play with my eyes, that is, I watch the drummer's hands and the pianist's fingers so that I can go with them during strange rhythmical moments in the music. And, nothing is stranger than the intro to "Solar". Richard Drexler decided to play the tune totally out of time. From the first chord, I was watching his hands to know when to come in. We finally all started playing in time as Richard soloed on the song. Other tunes were a little loose, a little strange, but NEVER NEVER boring or predictable. THIS is what makes for interesting recording to me.

If you want an good artist, check out T. Scott Stromberg's stuff.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[JeffBerlin]

Wish I could've sat in on your clinic! Be sure to let us all know if you ever have a clinic/performance in Nashville, I will be in the front row!

Cool! If you ever attend my clinics, I promise that you will go home thinking about music a whole lot more differently than you do right now.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Wish I could've sat in on your clinic! Be sure to let us all know if you ever have a clinic/performance in Nashville, I will be in the front row!

Cool! If you ever attend my clinics, I promise that you will go home thinking about music a whole lot more differently than you do right now. Guys like me, that is, musicians with big mouths have a much greater responsibiity to back up what we say than someone who is politically correct and has made peace with everyone and everything. I am not at peace; I am at odds with players and methods of learning that many believe in. I did write a letter to Bass Player this month apologizing for offending anybody while I stood my ground for music's sake, and I still do! I don't apologize for still believing that much of what people learn is false and will never lead one to a better career in music. The proof is in the pudding; so many "bass owners" simply have never learned how to play well and actually have no interest in doing so. Too bad, because if one learned well, it only takes a year or two to learn enough skills about bass and music to last you for a lifetime IF you have learned well.

 

[Toronto Bassist]

REMEMBER THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ART AND ACADEMICA! This is not a good bass line to learn walking from. I may have had reason to play this line (I don't remember a note of what I played) but this is art, not academics. Learning walking lines correctly is way better than playing the oddly, and most often, artfully played bass line. Enjoy this, but do not regard it as important if you are learning how to play walking lines.

I'm not sure I understand why this wouldn't be a good bass line to learn walking from. Because it deviates too much from the "standard" changes, or something else? If a walking line can outline the chords and move smoothly from point A to point B, isn't it therefore a good walking line to learn from?

 

[JeffBerlin]

If you want an good artist, check out T. Scott Stromberg's stuff.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Fantastic stuff. I only wish that he had a trio picture with bass, piano and drums. Too bad because love his art.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I'm not sure I understand why this wouldn't be a good bass line to learn walking from. Because it deviates too much from the "standard" changes, or something else? If a walking line can outline the chords and move smoothly from point A to point B, isn't it therefore a good walking line to learn from?

No, not necessarily. The academic approach would correctly spell out a walking line that does a couple of things:

1. It starts on the root almost exclusively
2. It spells out the chord of the moment, or directly defines the path to the next chord
3. It resolves correctly to the next chord.

My line does little of these things which makes it a bad example of a perfect academic, musical, correct and resolution oriented walking line.

 

[Toronto Bassist]

Ok, I think I see what you mean, thank you. I think I'll continue working on it as an ear training exercise though

 

[CDweller]

If you ever attend my clinics, I promise that you will go home thinking about music a whole lot more differently than you do right now.
...if one learned well, it only takes a year or two to learn enough skills about bass and music to last you for a lifetime IF you have learned well.

The first quote is the reason why I'm coming down in March. It would be foolish to not take advantage of what you're offering, given the luxury of being able to do so. The second quote resonates intuitively. Seems like developing musical mastery is something that has no ending, but it does have the hazard of chasing your tail if you go down the wrong path. I look forward to working with someone who can point me along a fruitful path. The only preconception I'm bringing to school is that mastery doesn't just happen by itself.

 

[JeffBerlin]

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[JeffBerlin]

The first quote is the reason why I'm coming down in March. It would be foolish to not take advantage of what you're offering, given the luxury of being able to do so. The second quote resonates intuitively. Seems like developing musical mastery is something that has no ending, but it does have the hazard of chasing your tail if you go down the wrong path. I look forward to working with someone who can point me along a fruitful path. The only preconception I'm bringing to school is that mastery doesn't just happen by itself.

Sometimes I think that some guys are scared to learn. I say this because events and schools and lessons that sound less scary are popular with many guys. But, the idea of hearing some facts, things that can be learned slowly and peacefully, are still frightening to many bass players.

My event changes lives, but I am not convinced that many players want their lives changed. Ignorance IS bliss because if you don't know what or how to improve, then you don't have any responsibility to do anything about it. This is why our events are always inclusive of only guys interested in music and musical improvement. Some events seem to simply be a cool bass hang, which puts them into a Disneyland attitude. If music isn't the number one core issue to impart to bass players, then your money was invested in a hang, not an education. To improve is easy if you take the pressure off of having to "get it" regarding your lessons. Nobody has to "get it" They just have to LEARN it They just have to PRACTICE it in order to "get it". The "get it" part is guaranteed if one does the work, just like having good time practically guaranteed without that ridiculous clicking box that so many need in their lives.

 

[John Wentzien]

Not to get too off-topic.
I took your advice about using lighter strings (40-100).
I found myself using "standard guage" (45-105) out of habit for 30+ years.
Just dropping the guage that much has made a HUGE difference!
I don't get tired at all now...Thanks!

p.s. I actually like the tone better with the lighter strings.

 

[Toronto Bassist]

You know, I was listening to Steve Khan's "The Suitcase" last night, and at one point he and Anthony Jackson were playing a riff in unison while Dennis Chambers played a solo behind them. I know if it was me - at least at this point - I would have sped up or slowed down. How do you practice for something like that?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Not to get too off-topic.
I took your advice about using lighter strings (40-100).
I found myself using "standard guage" (45-105) out of habit for 30+ years.
Just dropping the guage that much has made a HUGE difference!
I don't get tired at all now...Thanks!

p.s. I actually like the tone better with the lighter strings.

Isn't it interesting how much easier things can become in music if you don't follow what the standard beliefs about things are, but simply look into new principles that might put the old principles to shame? Lighter strings are an opportunity to pluck a little bit more gently and still get a huge sound out of your bass if you have dialed in your amplifier correctly.

 

[JeffBerlin]

You know, I was listening to Steve Khan's "The Suitcase" last night, and at one point he and Anthony Jackson were playing a riff in unison while Dennis Chambers played a solo behind them. I know if it was me - at least at this point - I would have sped up or slowed down. How do you practice for something like that?

It takes time not to speed up or slow down. It takes much practice, counting, feeling the "1" and allowing the time to become internalized through the exercise of simply trying not to speed up or slow down. Practicing is an exerience that never gives up its information right away. Never! But it does allow you to experience, little by little, new principles of music, new ways to play the notes on your bass neck, and time to review older music that might still not be that familiar to you. It also allows you to learn how to not speed up or slow down under Again, these are reasons why I KNOW that a metronome won't help you to have good time. It insists that you perform, when practicing requires the time to allow you to REGARD! Big difference between the two, something that practically every metronome user/teacher/endorser never thought about.

 

[John Wentzien]

It takes time not to speed up or slow down. It takes much practice, counting, feeling the "1" and allowing the time to become internalized through the exercise of simply trying not to speed up or slow down. Practicing is an exerience that never gives up its information right away. Never! But it does allow you to experience, little by little, new principles of music, new ways to play the notes on your bass neck, and time to review older music that might still not be that familiar to you. It also allows you to learn how to not speed up or slow down under Again, these are reasons why I KNOW that a metronome won't help you to have good time. It insists that you perform, when practicing requires the time to allow you to REGARD! Big difference between the two, something that practically every metronome user/teacher/endorser never thought about.

This concept seems so simple to me. I don't understand why bassist don't get it.
If you use "practice" time to pick-apart musical ideas (out of time) so you completely understand them, then..when its time to perform them, you can concentrate on "locking-in" with the rest of the musicians...no matter what the flux of the time might be.
If you know the material...you can adjust accordingly on stage.
The more musical concepts you master...the easier it is to execute them without "thinking" so much when the heat is on.

 

[Toronto Bassist]

It takes time not to speed up or slow down. It takes much practice, counting, feeling the "1" and allowing the time to become internalized through the exercise of simply trying not to speed up or slow down. Practicing is an exerience that never gives up its information right away. Never! But it does allow you to experience, little by little, new principles of music, new ways to play the notes on your bass neck, and time to review older music that might still not be that familiar to you. It also allows you to learn how to not speed up or slow down under Again, these are reasons why I KNOW that a metronome won't help you to have good time. It insists that you perform, when practicing requires the time to allow you to REGARD! Big difference between the two, something that practically every metronome user/teacher/endorser never thought about.

Thanks for this, I find it very helpful. I think I would add that probably trying to hear the subdivisions in time is also helpful too, is it not?