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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

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Hello Jeff...one question that popped into my head is how you would approach a Wayne Shorter tune like Nefertiti or Virgo. I'm not asking for a full-blown harmonic analysis or anything - I'm just wondering if you would look at each chord as a discrete unit, or do you look for a larger harmonic frame of reference. The reason I ask is because Shorter's tunes are notorious for not including "easy stuff" like a lot of ii-V's, things like that.
 
Hello Jeff...one question that popped into my head is how you would approach a Wayne Shorter tune like Nefertiti or Virgo. I'm not asking for a full-blown harmonic analysis or anything - I'm just wondering if you would look at each chord as a discrete unit, or do you look for a larger harmonic frame of reference. The reason I ask is because Shorter's tunes are notorious for not including "easy stuff" like a lot of ii-V's, things like that.

My approach is to interpret individual chords and connect them. Whatever the chord of the moment, I try to represent it and move into the next chord and represent that. If you look at what I have written here, each sentence is related to the previous one. This makes a flow happening in the topic that I am discussing. I do this in music.

Without this concept, the music doesn't link together. My car is a Corolla and the gas mileage is great. Obama is really trying to fix healthcare in this country. Why? Because the roof of my house is pretty new and doesn't need any repairs.

See the difference?
 
When you realize that the majority of music education is designed, supported, promoted and re-established by non-musicians, you get the idea about how innocent students, new at the game of playing and music get sucked into the bogus principles that so many believe in. Who are these non-musicians who are offering nonsensical lessons? Music magazines and on-line websites like this one.

Your point is a good one but does not distinguish between musicians and those that seek to learn music. If we take the premise that everyone is not a musicain till they are qualified, how do you create interest, talk to and educate those who are looking to start, because by all accounts they have no understanding of what is going on or is involved when musical principals are used. It is the same if you go to a doctor and he speaks medical language to you...it will not work, you need it in laymens terms, plain English if you will. If not you will go back home and look up the words you remember and make your own interpretation of what might be happening.

We live in an era of un-precedented information access, information that allows teaching to get out of sync, to allow the foundations and building blocks to become distorted.
Players that seek out musical content are as strong as ever, it is just there are more "also rans" if you will, those that see the opportunity and jump on. Don't ever confuse these people with serious pupils because they are in the driving seat and will go all the way.

Musical education, well education in general is about turning out functional students, if the student cannot function, then the system is at fault. If we view all these other areas as training grounds for players then those that are after real music education will come through the "also rans".
Again view it as the doctor senario, there are many levels of healthcare from basic to surgeon, but not all can or want to be on the top level. We do not criticise a nurse because she is not a staff nurse or a doctor, we do not criticise a dentist or osteopath because they are not surgeons. On that, to be a surgeon means having depth in backgound in other aspects of medicine and to have "put the time in". Another point to remember heathcare budgets are not decided, run or accounted for by doctors and the needs of patients as a rule, but by those outside the field of medicine...now that also is a true of music education in a education budget.

Consider these other things as preperation if you will, a way to stimulate the mind, show you limitations, light a desire to be better, more creative, frustrate you, then en-lighten you, a way if you will to sort out the "also rans".

To understand any education you have to understand what is involved, it is not just a case of teaching, it is about having students prepared to learn...and that is a different situation altogether.:)

If students are always exposed to the negative they will not respond, even if something is wrong telling them so is not always the answer, they have to be encouraged to take the chance of being wrong, not associate that with stupid, to try something new and not worry about the consiquences. In music this is more so because it stimulates imagination beyond the confines of teaching and stimulate creativity in which being wrong is not associated with being stupid it is veiwed as different, and that is not a bad thing in music.:)
 
Hello Jeff...one question that popped into my head is how you would approach a Wayne Shorter tune like Nefertiti or Virgo. I'm not asking for a full-blown harmonic analysis or anything - I'm just wondering if you would look at each chord as a discrete unit, or do you look for a larger harmonic frame of reference. The reason I ask is because Shorter's tunes are notorious for not including "easy stuff" like a lot of ii-V's, things like that.
Hi - here's a good link talking about how to approach Wayne Shorter tunes, and in particular some analysis of Nefertiti:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I have been following some of the approaches in that thread recently as I work on some of his tunes, and the things that help me the most are first to look at the pitch collection in the melody as a function of section, then to do a harmonic analysis of the changes, and finally to transcribe a couple of choruses of Wayne's solo to see what he is doing.

Cheers,

Jeff
 
I was just reading back on some of the posts in this thread with the recomendations of the Chord Studies for Electric Bass book. I just also wanted to mention one of the books Jeff would often work with me on in our studies. Ernest Clarke's method for trombone has been a great source of melodic material in every key to practice. The register of the material fits exactly to the range of a four string electric bass. I've found it to be a much richer source than many of the bass specific materials out there.
 
I was just reading back on some of the posts in this thread with the recomendations of the Chord Studies for Electric Bass book. I just also wanted to mention one of the books Jeff would often work with me on in our studies. Ernest Clarke's method for trombone has been a great source of melodic material in every key to practice. The register of the material fits exactly to the range of a four string electric bass. I've found it to be a much richer source than many of the bass specific materials out there.

That is a great book, right John? This book covers pure first-time reading exercises up to quite involved bits of reading. It is written in melodic fasion repleat with good harmony, predictable and resolution-oriented. Each melody is a perfect segment of harmonic development. This is a fine book to learn how to read from, but the etudes can get a little harder as the book moves along.
 
I am in Mexico City and will play a concert and do a seminar tomorrow. We just got back from having a wonderful dinner at a traditional Mexican restaurant that serves meat. We also ordered (are you ready?) worms, grasshoppers, and ant eggs as the first plate. Actually they were OK. You put them into a tortilla, add a little bit of guacamole and hot sauce, fold it up, and enjoy your bugs. Not bad, but I can{t say that I smacked my lips after eating them. Still, the steak was to DIE and the dessert was to DIE TWICE. I've been only speaking Spanish which I enjoy. It is fun to not speak English for three days and only function in Spanish. I make mistakes and say some pretty dumb things, but you know me! I could care less about mistakes of any kind and just take it as my due as I steadily improve in Spanish. It is a good thing for me to remember when a foreigner comes to America and tries to speak English. It can{t be easy for them either.

More tomorrow. Ciao for niao!
 
Incidently, the best gig that Scott Henderson, Dennis Chambers and I played was in Taiwan. Did anybody tape this show?

I've got confirmation from the engineer of the show that he had the show digitally taped in 2 tracks. I'll send a copy of the show tape to you after he finds it in his backup disks and make a CD copy to me.

I'm glad that he did have backup from the great show.

TalkBassers in US, please ask your local performance promoter that the Henderson/Berlin/Chambers trio is burning! Ask them booking the trio!

Lee
 
I've got confirmation from the engineer of the show that he had the show digitally taped in 2 tracks. I'll send a copy of the show tape to you after he finds it in his backup disks and make a CD copy to me.

I'm glad that he did have backup from the great show.

TalkBassers in US, please ask your local performance promoter that the Henderson/Berlin/Chambers trio is burning! Ask them booking the trio!

Lee

Please keep your copy because maybe it might be good enough to release. Can you send the other recording to The Players School for me, as CD's?

Thank you.

I just finished maybe my best clinic of all time. Of course I went into my commentary with my usual "nobody-can-refute-my-proof" examples that time doesn't come from a click. They were puzzled at first when I brought this up. But when I proved it via examples of playing, singing and clapping, they had no choice but to see the logic that time comes from what you have learned via music, not from a click that never, under any circumstance, budges from where it started.

I showed them ideas to practice, and even made suggestions to the drummers who were there about how and how not to practice. When I showed the guitarists ideas about what and how to practice, they reacted as if they had never heard about music before. This is why it was such a great clinic, I changes lives today!

The world is messed up and music education falls right in line with the odd beliefs and practices going on in religion, economics, and general beliefs about life itselt. Practicing music might not be high on one's "to-do" list, but it is high on mine. They were blown away with the presentation because they told me that nobody had ever showed them those factual approaches to playing like I showed them today. The best thing of all for me was that I did the entire four hour clinic in Spanish with practically no reference to anything in English for hours.

As I said, "You can't speak the language if you don't know the words. This includes music. You can't play the instrument if you don't know the notes.

See you when I get back to America tomorrow.
 
I've been going through many of the posts from the first thread, and finally after about a week, I'm all caught up! I'm really enjoying the dialogue (even though at times I wondered if this was TalkBass or TalkMetronomes :D ).

Jeff, also I wanted to say that I really appreciate your openness, willingness, and patience in sharing your wisdom and experience with everyone here. I think we're all truly privileged to be able to take part in a discussion with someone of your expertise.

Anyway, in this post from the last thread http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8319063&postcount=295 , you referred to your new "standards CD". I looked on your website and on Amazon, but I couldn't find it. Is this something that will be released in the near future? That's something that I really want to hear. To my knowledge, I don't know of very many (if any) jazz standards album that was recorded by an electric bass player. I've been hoping for a long time that one of the top-tier electric bassists would release a "standards-heavy" album. In fact, since the time I was really exposed to your playing on "In Harmony's Way", I was always hoping you'd be the one to do this. :hyper: Anyway, I'll really be looking out for this one if/when it comes out!
 
Maybe I can get brownie points for working on a transcription for Jeff's walking line on "Oleo" :D

Seriously though, it's interesting...I haven't transcribed the chords yet, but it looks like there's a few neat substitutions going on...

oleo2.jpg
 
The world is messed up and music education falls right in line with the odd beliefs and practices going on in religion, economics, and general beliefs about life itselt. Practicing music might not be high on one's "to-do" list, but it is high on mine. They were blown away with the presentation because they told me that nobody had ever showed them those factual approaches to playing like I showed them today. The best thing of all for me was that I did the entire four hour clinic in Spanish with practically no reference to anything in English for hours.

As I said, "You can't speak the language if you don't know the words. This includes music. You can't play the instrument if you don't know the notes.

See you when I get back to America tomorrow.

Wish I could've sat in on your clinic! Be sure to let us all know if you ever have a clinic/performance in Nashville, I will be in the front row!
 
I just wrote out the exercises in that BP article, in all of the listed chord types, in F. Took my three hours, and I think my head might explode, but I'm feelin good.

Now to play em.

Btw Jeff that BP exercise is GREAT! It's really helping me to see the relationships between different chord types (as well as making me really uncomfortable, which always means improvement).
 
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