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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

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Jeff:

I understand what you mean about reading music as opposed to practicing reading music, but we all have to start somewhere.

I've seen the Chord Studies for Electric Bass and the Bach Cello Suites mentioned for sight reading studies. Are there more books you would recommend? A short semi-comprehensive set of books maybe?

Thanks.

I know that you directly asked Jeff this question, but I thought I'd weigh in with a suggestion anyway.

If you want to get started on learning how to read the bass clef, check out Note Reading Studies for Bass By Arnold Evans. If you Google it you'll find a preview posted on Google Books. I've been working with it for some time now, and I found that it provides a good introduction to reading - it will definitely give you enough to get started working on other written exercizes, like those in the chord studies books.
 
(You might want to do a search for a post by haVIC5 on the "composite minor.")

Will do - thanks.

It's been maybe 20 years since I last heard "MAster Blaster," and I can't get to it right now, but I seem to recall that the G and the F chords you mention in the chorus are not Gm and Fm but G/G7 and F/F7. Somebody can check me on this.

I am inclined to believe that is probably right - G/G7 and F/F7. I shot my guitar player an email asking him what he came up with for that part in the chorus.

This is going to be a fine project song for me to get into transcribing. I foresee a long, slow process ahead of me on my poorly tuned piano... :p
 
Will do - thanks.



I am inclined to believe that is probably right - G/G7 and F/F7. I shot my guitar player an email asking him what he came up with for that part in the chorus.

This is going to be a fine project song for me to get into transcribing. I foresee a long, slow process ahead of me on my poorly tuned piano... :p

I am not sure I understand what is meant by G/G7 and F/F7. I would simply call this a G7 chord and an F7 chord, in the 4th inversion and notate it as G/F and F/Eb meaning a G major chord, with the note "F" as the lowest tone of the chord. This is what I meant by saying Steve will do lots of Pedal tones. Hard to get the ears around it for sure.
 
I know that you directly asked Jeff this question, but I thought I'd weigh in with a suggestion anyway.

If you want to get started on learning how to read the bass clef, check out Note Reading Studies for Bass By Arnold Evans. If you Google it you'll find a preview posted on Google Books. I've been working with it for some time now, and I found that it provides a good introduction to reading - it will definitely give you enough to get started working on other written exercizes, like those in the chord studies books.

No, that's helpful. Maybe we as a thread could come up with a good list and get it posted as a sticky.
 
I am not sure I understand what is meant by G/G7 and F/F7. I would simply call this a G7 chord and an F7 chord, in the 4th inversion and notate it as G/F and F/Eb meaning a G major chord, with the note "F" as the lowest tone of the chord. This is what I meant by saying Steve will do lots of Pedal tones. Hard to get the ears around it for sure.

Didn't mean to confuse--all I meant was that I couldn't remember whether the chord was a straight G or a G7, or whether the other one was a straight F or F7. No complicated slash harmony was intended!;):D
 
Happy Birthday Jeff!

Wish you can come to Taiwan for a REAL clinic gig, or wish I can go to Clearwater again...

Lee Jiang

Hi Lee. Thank you for your kind birthday wish. Come on over to Clearwater anytime. I have lots of cool things to show you.
Incidently, the best gig that Scott Henderson, Dennis CVhambers and I played was in Taiwan. Did anybody tape this show?

Regards,

Jeff
 
happy birthday jeff!!

by the way, don't know if you or anybody can help with it

but i've resently been jamming with a rather interesting guitarist, and i had a ahrd time jammin with him because he used such odd chords that i am unable to identify, and he uses such unorthodox progressions so even if i gett he roots down he changes it up on me, at least its keeping me on my toes lol but i was wondering if you or anybody else for that matter would know of an interesting and fast way to identifying chord tones by ear?

There is no fast way to identfy chords or chord tones or anything else musical by ear. This is one reason why I have insisted that all musicians take ear training, so that messages like this one don't happen to you guys.
 
these both deal extensively with the subject. the bergonzi one goes into more paris while the weiskopf one just deals with one pair, but the exercises can be applied to any pair. the idea is to use 2 triads with no common tones. the most common pair are 2 majors a whole step apart ( Bb and C for example) but any 2 will work and give some interesting sounds. the books give some insight on how to fit them over changes. (im not saying that this is what jeff was teaching, but i know that these books are very similar to charlie's concept, although the process and step by step total immersion that charlie put you through was were the magic was)


http://www.amazon.com/Hexatonics-Inside-Improvisation-Jerry-Bergonzi/dp/B000FSS82E

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Intervallic-Improvisation-The-Modern-Sound/5141272

Anything by Jerry Bergonzi is worth checking out. Anything! But, it can be hard stuff so if you don't read well or can't play well, avoid his books until you've gotten some things together first.
 
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Jeff, when you are soloing over a piece that you've played regularly do you try to keep your improvisation different each time or do you find that similar thematic aspects creep in and become a regular part of that piece? I don't play jazz often but occasionally sub for a local group(who sadly have to provide background music in restaurants as their regular work) and i'm wondering if I'm putting too much pressure on myself to keep each solo totally fresh and new, although i do realise this will improve as i transcribe more stuff and increase my vocabularly.

I try like heck not to repeat myself, but it seems that I usually do. This is where I got the idea that the more that one adds new principles to their playing, the more that they could play new things. This is one of the motivating factors of my bass playing; I get bored with what I do rather quickly and I want to make my playing sound new and fresh. And so, I try all the time to do this, at least in jazz.
 
Hadrien's speed is crazy... he only uses 2 fingers right?..

I mean your speed is pretty insane too jeff

Nobyd comes even close to this guy. It's simply in his DNA. His hands have always functioned in pairs which is why he is so synchronized. He is a poster child against one of the principle of learning that I have put down ever since that I have heard about it, right vs left hand practicing. Little in music is as silly as practicing one hand over another.
 
I try like heck not to repeat myself, but it seems that I usually do. This is where I got the idea that the more that one adds new principles to their playing, the more that they could play new things. This is one of the motivating factors of my bass playing; I get bored with what I do rather quickly and I want to make my playing sound new and fresh. And so, I try all the time to do this, at least in jazz.

Incadentally, I hauled out my copy of Aneurhythms last night and your solo on Copland is one of the most beautiful, melodic bass solos I've ever heard. I come from a very song orientated rock background and have always believed that any solo, on any instrument, is there to serve the piece and lift it up. To me this solo is a perfect example of that.
 
I would probably spell these as follows:

C D Eb F Gb Ab Bbb Cbb C
and
C Dd Eb Fb Gb Abb Bbb Bb C

Of course either way works just fine, but to someone with the strict enharmonic sense that comes from a classical background, I don't like to see sharps and flats used together in the manner that Jeff spelled them. FYI, for the coolest use of diminished, or octatonic scales in a rock setting, downloads "It's Ice" off of "Rift" by Phish off of Itunes and give it a listen. The bridge of this song features the guitar, bass, and piano each playing octatonic licks with slightly different patterns. A truly cool demonstration of how you can combine rock n roll with a masters degree in music from Berkley. :)

Understood your comment about mixing sharps and flats. But in jazz it happens. Example: a C7(#11) is spelled C D E F# G A Bb C. In walking lines, flats and sharps mingle and in different tonalities they work together as well. But the way that you spelled out the scales works perfectly.
 
Suppose the key signature = Eb Major, however the progressions imply Cm (strong resolution is provided by a Gm7 to Cm progression). What's the key? Cm or Eb Major? The key signature is identical for both.

From that, where to you begin numbering the chords? Eb major (Eb = I) or Cm (Cm = i)...

Either one or the other. Beethoven's 5th Symphony is written in C Minor which means that the key signature is Bb Eb and Ab.
 
A great many pop tunes are like the Stevie Wonder tune you reference, they float back and forth from the Major I to the relative minor. Since these keys have the same signature, it can be very difficult to tell what key they are in. Here in Nashville, where the number system reigns, you have this problem all the time.
To me, you have to look for the dominate chord. Is there a strong sense of Bb7 resolving to Eb, or is it G7, resolving to the C minor. Also, I would pay attention to the last chord. In music that is Modal, and not tonal, that doesn't utilize dominant chords, as is the case with much r and b, than the last chord can be used to determine the key. I don't know the Stevie tune discussed here, but if it seems to wander between the Eb and Cminor, which ever one it ends on can be used to interpret the song.

In the case of the Stevie song, it actually doesn't matter what key you call it, or what numbers you assign the chords, since the chords are the same in Cminor and Eb major (accept the dominant V chord) The only difference would be if you are the session leader handing out charts to play. As long as the charts matched up so the musicians weren't confused, you should be OK.
If this is just for your own study, it truly won't matter if you interpret the song as being in C minor or Eb.

It may be helpful to chart it out in both Cminor, and then again in Eb so you have two interpretations. Then you can use which ever one you feel comfortable with. I am careful to say interpretations here, because I don't think there is a "correct" way in this example. Again, the prescence of the dominant V-I or ii V I progression will let you know.

Also, to try to answer your other question, Key usually equals key signature. No sharps or flats usually means C major or a minor (in a tonal music setting) The exception to this is in modal music, where the same key signature could indicate d-dorian (such as "So what") or G mixolydian. Also, a lot of jazz won't really have a "key" but will use accidentals and cascades of ii-V-I progressions, to suggest different keys at different times. What key is "Giant Steps" for example? A lot of modern music is basically chromatic, and a lack of a key signature doesn't mean C major by default.

Giant Steps isn't written within a key signature. It is a chord progression and melody as much of jazz is. I never write music in key signatures, but from my violin training, I can read any key signature that is in front of me.
 
Incadentally, I hauled out my copy of Aneurhythms last night and your solo on Copland is one of the most beautiful, melodic bass solos I've ever heard. I come from a very song orientated rock background and have always believed that any solo, on any instrument, is there to serve the piece and lift it up. To me this solo is a perfect example of that.

Many thanks. I love that recording. I wrote every note on that record and it was a herculean effort. I think that some of those tunes are among the best compositions I ever wrote. Don't Be Happy, Worry! (Danny Gottlieb's funny title for the song) is maybe the most interesting bassline compositional tune anywhere in music. Nothing even comes close to the twisted harmony and wierd rhythmical variations of that written melody performed on bass guitar.
 
You never know jeff, Hadrien may have popped in and had a look at your thread at some point, he's a member here... By the way Jeff I recently read an early interview with you somewhere on the internet, i think it was early 80's maybe '82, and i found that it didn't seem like the Jeff Berlin as he's known today, by that I mean outspoken in the world of music education. I then realised that it must have been due to the fact that those poor teaching principles just didn't exist at that point i.e. TAB's growth in popularity, 'chops' lessons etc. And so I just wanted to thank you for becoming who music needed you to be and protesting such methods standing for all that is musical in music ed! I've gone on a bit too long but im genuinely grateful to you for your inspiring me into proper musical improvement... Ps: it was interesting learning that somewhat fateful day when you almost joined the army led to me thanking you almost 40 years later haha, cheers.
 
You never know jeff, Hadrien may have popped in and had a look at your thread at some point, he's a member here... By the way Jeff I recently read an early interview with you somewhere on the internet, i think it was early 80's maybe '82, and i found that it didn't seem like the Jeff Berlin as he's known today, by that I mean outspoken in the world of music education. I then realised that it must have been due to the fact that those poor teaching principles just didn't exist at that point i.e. TAB's growth in popularity, 'chops' lessons etc. And so I just wanted to thank you for becoming who music needed you to be and protesting such methods standing for all that is musical in music ed! I've gone on a bit too long but im genuinely grateful to you for your inspiring me into proper musical improvement... Ps: it was interesting learning that somewhat fateful day when you almost joined the army led to me thanking you almost 40 years later haha, cheers.

George Carlin said that he used to try to believe in God with all his might, but just couldn't do it! I tried with all my might to allow for different approaches to learning how to play. But, I just couldn't do it.

When you realize that the majority of music education is designed, supported, promoted and re-established by non-musicians, you get the idea about how innocent students, new at the game of playing and music get sucked into the bogus principles that so many believe in. Who are these non-musicians who are offering nonsensical lessons? Music magazines and on-line websites like this one.

The weight of non-effective musical lessons is smothering the effective methods a thousand to one. Some of the titles offering musical advice on Talkbass are utterly without substance and completely devoid of any practical use at all. But, they are popular and therefore, are considered indestructible and worhty of defense because emotions are connected with these threads and lessons, not musically rich content connected with good lessons to learn them. I enjoy this site because I can share some thoughts and you guys can share thoughts amongst yourselves over here about musical issues. But, elseware, this isn't the fact, which makes this thread an oasis in a desert full of sand.

Tomorrow I am off to Mexico, which means that it will be a little while before I can come back and answer some questions about bass. Let's talk soon. I'll be in touch after I land tomorrow sometime. Charlie Banacos Rules! Neesh Guacamole!!
 
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