Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

[SuperFunkyPete]

It sounds as if Hexatonics may be the same as, or similar to, "Triad Pairs". There is a discussion on the TBDB side where John Goldsby (chop_1992) weighs in with a good lesson about the topic.

It's not presently in my study routine at the moment, but I have bookmarked it to come back to (I also acquired the Gary Campbell book in question on the thread).

Triad Pairs: a thread on the DB Forum

In the meantime, I am enjoying using the Chord Tone Studies Book as an addition to my Arco practice. It is working out to be a good reading/intonation exercise on DB.

Thanks for that. Subscribed.

 

[gai113]

Hadrien's speed is crazy... he only uses 2 fingers right?..

I mean your speed is pretty insane too jeff

 

[Billnc]

It sounds as if Hexatonics may be the same as, or similar to, "Triad Pairs". There is a discussion on the TBDB side where John Goldsby (chop_1992) weighs in with a good lesson about the topic.

It's not presently in my study routine at the moment, but I have bookmarked it to come back to (I also acquired the Gary Campbell book in question on the thread).

Triad Pairs: a thread on the DB Forum

In the meantime, I am enjoying using the Chord Tone Studies Book as an addition to my Arco practice. It is working out to be a good reading/intonation exercise on DB.

This is all very cool, my training was using upper extensions etc and cycles to reharmonize a piece. I really appreciate where this thread has lead!

 

[engedi1]

There are two dimished scales.
C D Eb F F# G# A B C
and
C Db D# E F# G A Bb C

I have to look at what I wrote back then because I even might be wrong on the spelling of these scales, but I don't think so. Anybody?????

I would probably spell these as follows:

C D Eb F Gb Ab Bbb Cbb C
and
C Dd Eb Fb Gb Abb Bbb Bb C

Of course either way works just fine, but to someone with the strict enharmonic sense that comes from a classical background, I don't like to see sharps and flats used together in the manner that Jeff spelled them. FYI, for the coolest use of diminished, or octatonic scales in a rock setting, downloads "It's Ice" off of "Rift" by Phish off of Itunes and give it a listen. The bridge of this song features the guitar, bass, and piano each playing octatonic licks with slightly different patterns. A truly cool demonstration of how you can combine rock n roll with a masters degree in music from Berkley.

 

[tZer]

Key signature vs. Key - Not just semantics, right?

How do you determine the key (not key signature) of a piece and is the numbering of the chords only related only to the major key signature or is it related to the key (function?) of the chords?

 

[Schlyder]

Key = Key Signature
Yes, say if the chord is E-7, and the Key(signature) is in CMajor, it is the III-7 chord of the Key.

 

[tZer]

Key = Key Signature
Yes, say if the chord is E-7, and the Key(signature) is in CMajor, it is the III-7 chord of the Key.

Suppose the key signature = Eb Major, however the progressions imply Cm (strong resolution is provided by a Gm7 to Cm progression). What's the key? Cm or Eb Major? The key signature is identical for both.

From that, where to you begin numbering the chords? Eb major (Eb = I) or Cm (Cm = i)...

 

[Freddels]

Suppose the key signature = Eb Major, however the progressions imply Cm (strong resolution is provided by a Gm7 to Cm progression). What's the key? Cm or Eb Major? The key signature is identical for both.

From that, where to you begin numbering the chords? Eb major (Eb = I) or Cm (Cm = i)...

Cm and you start with Cm = i

If it's in Cm you may see a mixture of B nat and Bb and A nat and Ab as the composer plays with the different minor keys.

 

[bench]

Suppose the key signature = Eb Major, however the progressions imply Cm (strong resolution is provided by a Gm7 to Cm progression). What's the key? Cm or Eb Major? The key signature is identical for both.

From that, where to you begin numbering the chords? Eb major (Eb = I) or Cm (Cm = i)...

you also need to consider the melody if there is one... ...if the progression tends to Cm instead of Eb maj there should be B instead of Bb in the melody as the leading tone for C. That´s because a G dom7 chord has a "stronger" resolution to Cmin than G min7....

 

[tZer]

Cm and you start with Cm = i

If it's in Cm you may see a mixture of B nat and Bb and A nat and Ab as the composer plays with the different minor keys.

So Key != Key Signature, correct?

For the sake of this discussion, I am talking about pretty standard modern pop/rock/etc. - and more specifically, Stevie Wonder's "Master Blaster (Jammin')" - which I learned in the key signature of Eb major, but play and refer to in the key of Cm. So (i = Cm not I = Eb).

If I am understanding this correctly, identifying the key of a piece is based on the cadence. The key signature identifies major and relative minor scales but you need to see how the chord progressions are used before determining the key.

Therefore in order to 'properly' refer to the chords by number, you have to agree on the key of the piece - not just the key signature, correct?

 

[shwashwa]

that book is just about triad pairs. nothing else.

Cool, I need to look into that, I've found some by accident (through chord substititions I've learned and using that in lines) and use the ideas, but never developed it as a concept further. As a person who likes to make life complicated (I am going to get Hexatonics) does it extend to approach notes or does it just stick to the triads?
Thanks again!

 

[engedi1]

So Key != Key Signature, correct?

For the sake of this discussion, I am talking about pretty standard modern pop/rock/etc. - and more specifically, Stevie Wonder's "Master Blaster (Jammin')" - which I learned in the key signature of Eb major, but play and refer to in the key of Cm. So (i = Cm not I = Eb).

If I am understanding this correctly, identifying the key of a piece is based on the cadence. The key signature identifies major and relative minor scales but you need to see how the chord progressions are used before determining the key.

Therefore in order to 'properly' refer to the chords by number, you have to agree on the key of the piece - not just the key signature, correct?

A great many pop tunes are like the Stevie Wonder tune you reference, they float back and forth from the Major I to the relative minor. Since these keys have the same signature, it can be very difficult to tell what key they are in. Here in Nashville, where the number system reigns, you have this problem all the time.
To me, you have to look for the dominate chord. Is there a strong sense of Bb7 resolving to Eb, or is it G7, resolving to the C minor. Also, I would pay attention to the last chord. In music that is Modal, and not tonal, that doesn't utilize dominant chords, as is the case with much r and b, than the last chord can be used to determine the key. I don't know the Stevie tune discussed here, but if it seems to wander between the Eb and Cminor, which ever one it ends on can be used to interpret the song.

In the case of the Stevie song, it actually doesn't matter what key you call it, or what numbers you assign the chords, since the chords are the same in Cminor and Eb major (accept the dominant V chord) The only difference would be if you are the session leader handing out charts to play. As long as the charts matched up so the musicians weren't confused, you should be OK.
If this is just for your own study, it truly won't matter if you interpret the song as being in C minor or Eb.

It may be helpful to chart it out in both Cminor, and then again in Eb so you have two interpretations. Then you can use which ever one you feel comfortable with. I am careful to say interpretations here, because I don't think there is a "correct" way in this example. Again, the prescence of the dominant V-I or ii V I progression will let you know.

Also, to try to answer your other question, Key usually equals key signature. No sharps or flats usually means C major or a minor (in a tonal music setting) The exception to this is in modal music, where the same key signature could indicate d-dorian (such as "So what") or G mixolydian. Also, a lot of jazz won't really have a "key" but will use accidentals and cascades of ii-V-I progressions, to suggest different keys at different times. What key is "Giant Steps" for example? A lot of modern music is basically chromatic, and a lack of a key signature doesn't mean C major by default.

 

[Schlyder]

Suppose the key signature = Eb Major, however the progressions imply Cm (strong resolution is provided by a Gm7 to Cm progression). What's the key? Cm or Eb Major? The key signature is identical for both.

From that, where to you begin numbering the chords? Eb major (Eb = I) or Cm (Cm = i)...

Cm is the relative minor Key of EbMajor, Key is still EbMajor.
Gm7 to Cm is a IIIm7 to VIm function, still in key of EbMajor.

 

[Schlyder]

I concur with engedi1, that you have to watch where the Dom7 chords are. And as he also said, with use of II-V-I progressions as in Giant Steps, the key is modulating from key to key. Don't make things over complicated. Minor tonality can, and does exist within the Major Key.

 

[tZer]

I concur with engedi1, that you have to watch where the Dom7 chords are. And as he also said, with use of II-V-I progressions as in Giant Steps, the key is modulating from key to key. Don't make things over complicated. Minor tonality can, and does exist within the Major Key.

OK - Thanks to you and engedi1 for your posts. I need to get to the piano and look much more closely at all this.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

So Key != Key Signature, correct?

For the sake of this discussion, I am talking about pretty standard modern pop/rock/etc. - and more specifically, Stevie Wonder's "Master Blaster (Jammin')" - which I learned in the key signature of Eb major, but play and refer to in the key of Cm. So (i = Cm not I = Eb).

If I am understanding this correctly, identifying the key of a piece is based on the cadence. The key signature identifies major and relative minor scales but you need to see how the chord progressions are used before determining the key.

Therefore in order to 'properly' refer to the chords by number, you have to agree on the key of the piece - not just the key signature, correct?

That's right, they're not the same thing.

"Key" is the term that describes what the harmony is actually doing. "Key signature" is just a notational convenience that eases the task of rendering the key. Ideally you'd want the two to coincide, and quite often they do, but it's quite possible to write music that's very clearly in a specific key without using a key signature at all. You just have to use more accidentals. Also, it's quite common to see pieces of music that modulate through several keys without bothering to change the key signature. Pick up practically any Bach piece at random and you'll see this.

It's what's actually happening in the harmony that determines the key. The key signature, at most, only reflects the key.

And yes, that would be in C minor. C minor shares a key signature with Eb major, but it is NOT the same key, by definition. If it were the same key, there would be no need to name it at all.

 

[AltGrendel]

Jeff:

I understand what you mean about reading music as opposed to practicing reading music, but we all have to start somewhere.

I've seen the Chord Studies for Electric Bass and the Bach Cello Suites mentioned for sight reading studies. Are there more books you would recommend? A short semi-comprehensive set of books maybe?

Thanks.

 

[tZer]

That's right, they're not the same thing.

"Key" is the term that describes what the harmony is actually doing. "Key signature" is just a notational convenience that eases the task of rendering the key. Ideally you'd want the two to coincide, and quite often they do, but it's quite possible to write music that's very clearly in a specific key without using a key signature at all. You just have to use more accidentals. Also, it's quite common to see pieces of music that modulate through several keys without bothering to change the key signature. Pick up practically any Bach piece at random and you'll see this.

It's what's actually happening in the harmony that determines the key. The key signature, at most, only reflects the key.

And yes, that would be in C minor. C minor shares a key signature with Eb major, but it is NOT the same key, by definition. If it were the same key, there would be no need to name it at all.

Well - in the example I used it's quite possible that I have some of the chords that the guitar/piano were playing wrong... I am not sure - so I need to sit with the recording and make certain the chords I believed to be in play are actually the chords being played. Once I figured out that playing it as if it were in Cm made working out the riffs and other parts very easy - and since it does end on a C (in the bass) and all those other 'tell-tale' signs - I simply assumed Cm was the key and also assumed the chords in the guitar and piano were Gm and Fm in the Chorus... I am not so sure now...

But this is a strong argument for transcribing the song and seeing how all the parts come together. I've always learned songs as a bass player using a bass and I've found that I tend to overlook a LOT of the harmony because of that. The key sig. is clearly this key - therefore the chords those guys are playing must be these chords... Not always the case, is it?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Well - in the example I used it's quite possible that I have some of the chords that the guitar/piano were playing wrong... I am not sure - so I need to sit with the recording and make certain the chords I believed to be in play are actually the chords being played. Once I figured out that playing it as if it were in Cm made working out the riffs and other parts very easy - and since it does end on a C (in the bass) and all those other 'tell-tale' signs - I simply assumed Cm was the key and also assumed the chords in the guitar and piano were Gm and Fm in the Chorus... I am not so sure now...

But this is a strong argument for transcribing the song and seeing how all the parts come together. I've always learned songs as a bass player using a bass and I've found that I tend to overlook a LOT of the harmony because of that. The key sig. is clearly this key - therefore the chords those guys are playing must be these chords... Not always the case, is it?

No, it's not always the case, as you're seeing.

One point about minor: in minor tonality as it's commonly practiced, you'll often see BOTH the minor 6 and the major 6 (Ab and A in Cm) and BOTH the minor 7 and the major 7 (Bb and B in Cm) used in the same piece, depending on the harmonic and melodic needs at any given point, even though only the minor 6 and the minor 7 are explicitly specified by the key signature (another example fo why key signature is trumped by what the chords are actually doing). This is considered a legitimate practice within minor tonality and is not considered to be "busting" the key. (You might want to do a search for a post by haVIC5 on the "composite minor.")

It's been maybe 20 years since I last heard "MAster Blaster," and I can't get to it right now, but I seem to recall that the G and the F chords you mention in the chorus are not Gm and Fm but G or G7 and F or F7. Somebody can check me on this.

 

[engedi1]

Well - in the example I used it's quite possible that I have some of the chords that the guitar/piano were playing wrong... I am not sure - so I need to sit with the recording and make certain the chords I believed to be in play are actually the chords being played. Once I figured out that playing it as if it were in Cm made working out the riffs and other parts very easy - and since it does end on a C (in the bass) and all those other 'tell-tale' signs - I simply assumed Cm was the key and also assumed the chords in the guitar and piano were Gm and Fm in the Chorus... I am not so sure now...

But this is a strong argument for transcribing the song and seeing how all the parts come together. I've always learned songs as a bass player using a bass and I've found that I tend to overlook a LOT of the harmony because of that. The key sig. is clearly this key - therefore the chords those guys are playing must be these chords... Not always the case, is it?

part of the problem is that Stevie Wonder tunes can have a lot complicated chords with tonality on top moving over a bass pedal note. I agree though, about using a piano as well as your bass. Piano helps me to think through these things better than bass, but the goal is to get to Jeff's level, and transcribe with pen and paper only. Not there yet myself but hope to be someday...