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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

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hey jeff,
if you're not going to make your broadcast interactive, with input and Q and A from the audience (which i think would be pretty difficult given the large audience you want to attract) then why dont you just video tape yourself giving some lectures or whatever it is that you want to teach and put it up on your site for paid viewing and perhaps download? if it were a topic i were interested in id check it out. you could make a whole series of lessons. go nuts.

The lessons in series is a great idea. Maybe once per month or something have a "LIVE" paid access seminar type thing. Have a lessons completed requirement so one thing leads to another to reach a goal. Just thinkin'. IN other words one would need to complete X number of lessons to have access to seminar number 1.

Nothing for nothing...and I dont partake..but you can pay for and view porn one on one..Now dont get any ideas. The point is the technology is available.
 
Jeff:

If you don't mind, I'd like to take a stab at presenting a slightly differing view. Please keep in mind I'm a big fan of your work and have followed the debate that you've had a hand in stirring up for at least 15 years that I know of. I often find myself in full agreement with you, but often you drive me crazy. Either way, I'm honored to have the opportunity to actually join the debate with you.


1) In general, I think you sometime neglect to take into account the fact that you have something of a gift that 99.99% of the rest of us bass players don't have. I think you discount this fact in much of your self-described "pontificating". I have read that you were considered a prodigy on violin. You are certainly a bass virtuoso. I know that you've dedicated your life to your craft. But I also think it is safe to say that some of your talent was not taught to you, nor was it something you picked up via practice or experience. Maybe some of it was in you before you ever picked up a musical instrument.

2) People / bassists / musicians come in all varieties. Many people love to play the bass, get endless enjoyment out of it, and could give two s**ts about learning to read, or study music theory. That's OK, and it actually makes the world a better place. Wedding bands need bassists, too. We can't all be jazz virtuosos :) You've shared the stage a few times with a bassist some would call a virtuoso, who, if I'm correct, knows just about zero theory (Billy Sheehan)?

3) In the past, you've drawn lines as to what constitutes a musician, or bass player versus someone who is merely a bass "owner". The worlds of music and art aren't as structured as say, the medical industry in that anyone who plays can call themselves a musician, and anyone who paints can call themselves an artist. However, removing one of the family dogs' kidneys doesn't make me a doctor. As a trained, learned, dedicated musician, you may refute that, but the simply fact is that "musician" and "bassist" are broad terms. Until they come up with better words, me, you, and the dudes drumming on the buckets on Bourbon Street are all musicians.

I await your scathing retort ;)
 
Is there a technology that permits a world-wide broadcast? No one answered this question and I don't know the answer. Can it be done whereby I go on-line and talk and demonstrate bass to players everywhere only from my office??

Didn't Bass Player Magazine do something very similar several months ago with Michael Manring? I would inquire with your contacts at BPM. With Bass Player TV and all I'll bet they could make it happen.
 
Some people are born with talent, but I believe everyone can learn to play, just not as fast or as good as those guys. There are savants who remember every musical piece they hear, and can play it at first try without ever practicing an instrument. The rest of us just have to spend our lives working on it.

And yes, a lot of amazing musicians don't read or know the theory at all. But I think everyone would have a greater musical understanding if they learned it. Most people aren't born with great talent, and should learn "the right way" to have a great musical foundation to build on. I guess that's your point, Jeff?
 
Some people are born with talent, but I believe everyone can learn to play, just not as fast or as good as those guys. There are savants who remember every musical piece they hear, and can play it at first try without ever practicing an instrument. The rest of us just have to spend our lives working on it.

And yes, a lot of amazing musicians don't read or know the theory at all. But I think everyone would have a greater musical understanding if they learned it. Most people aren't born with great talent, and should learn "the right way" to have a great musical foundation to build on. I guess that's your point, Jeff?

Talent means little without the work. Everyone who puts in the time can play well, but as you imply some will be gifted and rise to the top, others will just be able to play well. I've seen plenty of people pick up a guitar, they have natural talent and can very quickly bash out some chords, and stop there!

I took up drawing, my mother is a professional artist and is capable of photo realism, but does folk art for a living. I thought I had no talent for drawing. Well I did some exercises and after much work did some stuff that looked good. But I hated every second of drawing! Well after 15 minutes anyway. I don't even like doodling much. I think this is what happens with many people and music. They love the idea of doing it but not the work.

I think anyone who puts in a few thousand hours at music is rewarded with being able to play. I think we are capable of doing what we are given the patience to pursue more than inate talent.
 
I think anyone who puts in a few thousand hours at music is rewarded with being able to play. I think we are capable of doing what we are given the patience to pursue more than inate talent.

I'll back this up.

Malcom Gladwell refers to studies in his book, 'Outliers', which back up Bill's statement. There are other studies from the journals of psychological reserach which support his claim. IIRC, for professional classical violinists, it takes about 4,000 hours of practice to be of acceptable standard, but for world class, it requires 8,000-10,000 hours of practice. With great talent, the number can be reduced even as low as 5,000 hours, but for most, 8,000-10,000 is what is required. This is apparently a repeatable finding across different fields of learning.

Then you also need to be lucky!

And also practicing the right stuff....
 
Hi Jeff, with all the focus on chord tones that's been going on here I've pretty much put aside running scales for now. Along with the chord studies book, I've also gone back to basics to review arpeggios so I am aware of the relationships between the chord tones and the approach notes in the book. What i'd like to know is, do you think it's beneficial to be able to play arpeggios at a certain level of proficiency or is it more relevant to focus on etudes and exercises that incorporate them in a more musical or melodic manner?

The bottom line requirement of practice is to be IN IT! Exercises are not, never have, and never will be meant for direct application or consideration when playing. Neither was identifying verbs, adverbs, nouns and pronouns meant for any specific application when we learned what they were in junior high school. Your job is simple and the questions to answer are without challenge.

1. Do you love music?
2. Do you love to play?
3. Do you wish to know more than you already do?
4. Are you willing to do something to improve your playing?

Done! You have honestly outlined your entire musical life with four questions. You entire life as a musician has been summed up without defining the over, or lesser importances of etudes vs chordtones, vs scales, vs, soloing, etc. A teacher would make this entire experience way easier for you and for everybody else, but, like I said, a good teacher is a hard thing to find anymore. I know that I took a longer route to answer you, but if you practice daily, slowly, consistently, over time, you are going to improve if you practice the "Good Stuff!"
 
hey jeff,
if you're not going to make your broadcast interactive, with input and Q and A from the audience (which i think would be pretty difficult given the large audience you want to attract) then why dont you just video tape yourself giving some lectures or whatever it is that you want to teach and put it up on your site for paid viewing and perhaps download? if it were a topic i were interested in id check it out. you could make a whole series of lessons. go nuts.

Interesting! I'll think about that one!
 
thedukeofno--If you don't mind, I'd like to take a stab at presenting a slightly differing view. Please keep in mind I'm a big fan of your work and have followed the debate that you've had a hand in stirring up for at least 15 years that I know of. I often find myself in full agreement with you, but often you drive me crazy. Either way, I'm honored to have the opportunity to actually join the debate with you.

1) In general, I think you sometime neglect to take into account the fact that you have something of a gift that 99.99% of the rest of us bass players don't have. I think you discount this fact in much of your self-described "pontificating". I have read that you were considered a prodigy on violin. You are certainly a bass virtuoso. I know that you've dedicated your life to your craft. But I also think it is safe to say that some of your talent was not taught to you, nor was it something you picked up via practice or experience. Maybe some of it was in you before you ever picked up a musical instrument.

JEFF- Good points! I DO have the bug since I was a kid. But it is a fact that talent without practice is nothing. Even an average talent can steadily increase their playing ability as they learn new principles. They may or may not acquire my skills and knowledge. But, if the practice the "Good Stuff" on a regular basis, they WILL impvrove without exception and this is what I am after for those guys.

thedukeofno--People / bassists / musicians come in all varieties. Many people love to play the bass, get endless enjoyment out of it, and could give two s**ts about learning to read, or study music theory. That's OK, and it actually makes the world a better place. Wedding bands need bassists, too. We can't all be jazz virtuosos :) You've shared the stage a few times with a bassist some would call a virtuoso, who, if I'm correct, knows just about zero theory (Billy Sheehan)?

JEFF Even an amateur golfer wants the same satisfaction as a pro player is seeking; they all want to put the ball onto the green and into the hole.
A bass has certain hidden attributes as anything that is unknown have. The trick is to want to unlock those hidden gems and use them. Even a basic amateur bass player must feel some kind of need to express themselves through their instrument or else, why would they have bought it. It is in this similarity that every top bass pro on Earth shares the esact same sentiment as the pure beginner feels, to make music through their instrument. And it is for this reason that I ask people to learn well how to play.

thedukeofno--In the past, you've drawn lines as to what constitutes a musician, or bass player versus someone who is merely a bass "owner". The worlds of music and art aren't as structured as say, the medical industry in that anyone who plays can call themselves a musician, and anyone who paints can call themselves an artist. However, removing one of the family dogs' kidneys doesn't make me a doctor. As a trained, learned, dedicated musician, you may refute that, but the simply fact is that "musician" and "bassist" are broad terms. Until they come up with better words, me, you, and the dudes drumming on the buckets on Bourbon Street are all musicians.

JEFF There was once a guy who shot himself in the arm with a .22 bullet and called it art (this is a true story!). There was another guy who once laid on a busy sidewalk between two electrically charged plates of metal and with a bucket of saltwater next to his head. One kick of that bucket and the guy would have been electrocuted. He also called what he was doing as art!

I separate art from academia (regular readers know that I do this). I do this because they aren't related. And I call some guys bass owners because they are not musicians, not having sought out musical things and investigated the musical issue connected with an instrument. I also own a stove and I cook on it quite often, but I have never called myself a chef. I am a stove-owner, a basic cook, a guy not dedicated to pursuing the elements that absolutely every chef pursues in their quest to improve and innovate their artistic pursuit of newer cuisine.

This is the best that I can answer your comments as to why I do what I do. If it didn't make sense, then I am OK with this and we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for asking your questions.
 
Some people are born with talent, but I believe everyone can learn to play, just not as fast or as good as those guys. There are savants who remember every musical piece they hear, and can play it at first try without ever practicing an instrument. The rest of us just have to spend our lives working on it.

And yes, a lot of amazing musicians don't read or know the theory at all. But I think everyone would have a greater musical understanding if they learned it. Most people aren't born with great talent, and should learn "the right way" to have a great musical foundation to build on. I guess that's your point, Jeff?

Kind of! No matter if one is a savant or if one is a hacker, they both need to practice!
 
I'll back this up.

Malcom Gladwell refers to studies in his book, 'Outliers', which back up Bill's statement. There are other studies from the journals of psychological reserach which support his claim. IIRC, for professional classical violinists, it takes about 4,000 hours of practice to be of acceptable standard, but for world class, it requires 8,000-10,000 hours of practice. With great talent, the number can be reduced even as low as 5,000 hours, but for most, 8,000-10,000 is what is required. This is apparently a repeatable finding across different fields of learning.

Then you also need to be lucky!

And also practicing the right stuff....

Bravo to Billnc and to Peter Weil. They both are correct and this spells a long long road ahead for anybody who wishes to improve as a bass player. I have said all along that I deeply believe that many bassists aren't interested in learning how to play. They are interested in playing NOW! This is the only reason why so many use metronomes, and follow the silly lessons that so many teachers are teaching; they imply and occasionally outright state that you will imrprove by practicing via these methods. NO YOU WILL NOT! You will imrprove by practicing music for a long, long, long time. And if you don't love the idea of participating in this long term musical experience, then maybe you are in the wrong field. Sorry, but it is true! I have no problem saying that I have no intention on practicing boxing, cooking, gardening or anything else except music. Therefore, I have no expectations that anything decent is going to happen to me in these other areas.
 
hahahahaha I like your use of golf as a reference Jeff. As another of my professions is a golf professional. And it is the same with golf. Most people just want to grab their clubs and go play. They play OK and most are fine with that. Others though, want to improve, and pursue to get better. They start to learn the many motor skills, and concepts required to play golf at a high level of performance. But unless they put in the time, and practice the proper things, they will not improve. It is a dicipline. A commitment. And just like anything else where performance at a high level is the ultimate goal. One has to learn the technical data and concepts, then practice the motor skills related to that info, until it is internalized. Then during performance, the person must be able to let the rules and analytical thoughts go for the most part , and just play. With no expectations of the result. Just play.
That is a proven way to achieve performance at your highest level. And then you have to take into account having good days and bad days, for quality of performance.

hahahahaha.. I parallel golf, music and life quite a bit. I find certain principles overlap and that techniques that are successful in one area of my life can be useful in another as well.
 
Jeff asked:
1. Do you love music?
2. Do you love to play?
3. Do you wish to know more than you already do?
4. Are you willing to do something to improve your playing?

I plead guilty to all of these counts, yer honor.

There is no free lunch. Gotta study, gotta practice if I want to be a good player. I want to make sure every practice and study minute is used as well as possible. It's now clear to me that music is fair. Sure, there are prodigies and so forth, but even in the absence of any natural musical gifts, if I put my time in with proper study and practice, I will develop into a good musician and bass player. And let's be clear here- if there's one thing the world can use, it's a good bass player.
 
hahahahaha I like your use of golf as a reference Jeff. As another of my professions is a golf professional. And it is the same with golf. Most people just want to grab their clubs and go play. They play OK and most are fine with that. Others though, want to improve, and pursue to get better. They start to learn the many motor skills, and concepts required to play golf at a high level of performance. But unless they put in the time, and practice the proper things, they will not improve. It is a dicipline. A commitment. And just like anything else where performance at a high level is the ultimate goal. One has to learn the technical data and concepts, then practice the motor skills related to that info, until it is internalized. Then during performance, the person must be able to let the rules and analytical thoughts go for the most part , and just play. With no expectations of the result. Just play.
That is a proven way to achieve performance at your highest level. And then you have to take into account having good days and bad days, for quality of performance.

hahahahaha.. I parallel golf, music and life quite a bit. I find certain principles overlap and that techniques that are successful in one area of my life can be useful in another as well.

Anybody wishing to improve cannot escape the reality that there are some aspects connected to their projet that simply must be addressed if one wishes to improve. It is impossible to ignore if one is really interested in improving. If you are, then pretend that you are a golfer and you wish to send a little white ball into a coup a couple of hundred yards away. Catch: you have to practice to do this!
 
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