Often it is best not to review some exercises that you have already learned, but to move on and learn new ones. It is a mixture of the two experiences. Sometimes review is good and sometimes it is best to move on to new things to keep music fresh. I opt for the second experience over the first, but I have also found reason to tell guys to go back and review some things. I've done this myself.
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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II
- Thread starter Mark Wilson
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Often it is best not to review some exercises that you have already learned, but to move on and learn new ones. It is a mixture of the two experiences. Sometimes review is good and sometimes it is best to move on to new things to keep music fresh. I opt for the second experience over the first, but I have also found reason to tell guys to go back and review some things. I've done this myself.
Generally, yes because much of the written academics have been proven to be effective for learning purposes. Other kind of non-committed-to-paper learning principles are less specific. But, a looser investigative approach to playing which includes one's own instincts to use the knowledge that they have acquired over time can be good. Jazz players did this. They learned how to first play and then later, people wrote books about what these guys came up with (they did the same thing for rock playing, but there is little in music as useless to musical improvement as rock academica.) I generally lean toward written material because somebody thought of a principle of musical improvement that I didn't think of, and put it in a book or on music paper. That kind of music is for me.
Just want to take another opportunity to extend a heartfelt Thank You to Mr. Berlin for sharing a great deal of his time and knowledge with us! I'm nowhere near as fluent in theory as I'd like to be, but I greatly enjoy reading his insightful and helpful posts nonetheless. 
Do you or did you ever, when working on something new and particularly challenging, find that your brain got fatigued and saturated and that your progression seemed to devolve? What i mean is that sometimes when i'm working on a piece for instance, i see improvement and then suddenly i find that my execution of the piece becomes clumsy and sloppy.
- Jun 25, 2007
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- Artist:TC Electronic RH450 bass system (original test-pilot)
This advice has really helped me.
I've found that I was already "thinking" this way all along.
Yes, this is a common experience when learning something new. But one doesn't devolve when learning like this. It just feels this way. Actually what is happening is a sort of Dow Jones effect. The market always, without fail, goes up even after it has gone down. The dips in one's feeling about their playing is like a down day in the stock market. But overall, your stocks and mutual funds are way higher than when you first bought them so the down day is a temporary situation. This is exactly like learning music. You feel the down side of learning something new, but you actually are way up because if you weren't actually higher in your musical capability, then you wouldn't have the musical skills to even attempt to learn something new and more sophisticated.
Scales are one of the greatest over-rated principles of music to learn. Teachers teach scales because they aren't knowledgeable enough about music to teach other musical ideas. If you want to know how limited your teacher is about teaching you music, then they will insist that you practice with a metronome and they will assign you scales to practice. It's a dead giveaway that these teachers don't know their subject. Find a teacher who has a broader scope of musical understanding and you will never be sorry.
Controversial though this may be, you should mostly avoid studying at any music store that offers lessons because the stores are not qualified to hire capable teachers, unless these teacher come highly recommended. Then you may have someone to investigate and check out to see if they have a curriculum to learn from.
P.S. Never study with a rock player because a rock player generally doesn't know enough about music to learn from them. If you wish to learn rock, then buy rock CD's and listen and imitate what you hear. No sense in paying to learn music from a guy that you can learn for free.
Chords and all that go with them is the best manner to learn one's instrument according to the basic tonalities of the songs that they are playing, jazz songs especially. Scales have their place, but in this day and age of musical limitations via limited music teachers and school, they are over stated and under-required bits of tonality.
This is a really great point. I had plateaued in my ability to play the gigue from the Eb bach cello suite. Then, when I started taking lessons with Roy, I have played nothing but jazz stuff for a couple months, things like the Chord Studies books and Charlie Parker heads and solos. Then, just a couple nights ago I pulled the Cello suite out for fun, and was able to nail it! So growing in another capacity supplied some missing ingredient in my technique that allowed me to play this difficult tune with much great clarity and accuracy.
The funny thing is, since I haven't studied jazz in over 10 years, I feel underwater with it. So to my perception, I was drowning in a sea of new material, but I was actually growing and improving without really knowing it.
My suggestion is to return to a piece that was challenging, and see if you can play it better than before. This is a good milestone for growth, and provides encouragement to keep up with that dastardly Chord Studies book!
- Jun 25, 2007
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- Artist:TC Electronic RH450 bass system (original test-pilot)
Yeah.
When I started thinking "Chordal" instead of "modal" the whole thing opened up for me.
Really helped on changes where I was always tempted to go for the "1" all the time.
Especialy on walking bass lines.
When I started thinking "Chordal" instead of "modal" the whole thing opened up for me.
Really helped on changes where I was always tempted to go for the "1" all the time.
Especialy on walking bass lines.
Started a line or solo on the 1 is a classic weakness of mine, and my teacher has been trying to beat it out of me with excellent chordal exercises. Improvement is slow, but I am sure happening.
Hi jeff, big thanks for this thread, i followed the last one, i think you can make it something special anyway, i posted some questions on the last but now im looking at getting a teacher for the 1st time, ive found some relatively local ones and some not so local, im wondering what sort of criteria i should look for? i'm in the UK, i know about looking for the best jazz players who will teach great music... There are some that have the credentials like master's degrees and are doing doctorates etc therefore seem to not have much experience in teaching and others that have much experience in teaching and are actively playing jazz (although these are further way and some offer 'slap' as part of the lessons although i suppose i could just ask to focus on the real music stuff?)... sorry ive been very long winded, any more criteria? Im going to get in touch with a few i am just wondering what i should enquire about? I was thinking i could attend a few teachers and try and decided who is best but as you would probably rightly say, i am not qualified to decide this soo... apologies for the length again but many thanks for your dedication and passion for improvement and teaching it, youve inspired a teenager into seeking real improvement amongst my many peers who are just looking for 'a gig', wow i'll stop typing sorry. Thanks again!
anyway, i posted some questions on the last but now im looking at getting a teacher for the 1st time, ive found some relatively local ones and some not so local, im wondering what sort of criteria i should look for? i'm in the UK, i know about looking for the best jazz players who will teach great music... There are some that have the credentials like master's degrees and are doing doctorates etc therefore seem to not have much experience in teaching and others that have much experience in teaching and are actively playing jazz (although these are further way and some offer 'slap' as part of the lessons although i suppose i could just ask to focus on the real music stuff?)... sorry ive been very long winded, any more criteria? Im going to get in touch with a few i am just wondering what i should enquire about? I was thinking i could attend a few teachers and try and decided who is best but as you would probably rightly say, i am not qualified to decide this soo... apologies for the length again but many thanks for your dedication and passion for improvement and teaching it, youve inspired a teenager into seeking real improvement amongst my many peers who are just looking for 'a gig', wow i'll stop typing sorry. Thanks again!Slow down on the chord tone book. It is an advanced bit of study and requires a lot of regard. Don't rush this book.
P.S. Bach Cello Suites aren't always the best things to practice. There are lots of other principles to work on that have more tonality and variety and fit right into the e. bass' range. Try some trombone books with exercises and etudes. For me, they are much better bits of music than the Bach sometimes because they'v ebeen written to learn from, not perform.
Remember that walking lines are different than chord tone-type playing. A walking line is NOT contingent upon a chord tone system but of a moving/resolution of notes that represent directly and indirectly, the chord that you are walking on. In solos, the chord tones are THE best method to represent tonality because one has at least 4 different starting points to represent the chords, all of the them usable and perfect. Of course one moves on after learning chord tones, but for now, take the chord tones and play on a variety of jazz tunes with them in solos. They will change your playing life.
It is a classic weakness in everybody because bass players are taught to regard the root, not the inner notes. The trick is to stop at the end of a bar, see what note you've landed on, look at the next chord coming up and go to the nearest chord tone of that chord. It is slow going, but everything worht having is sometimes slow before it becomes fast going.
Thanks for the good word here. I agree, and don't practice the cello suites much any more. I will keep my eye out for some good trombone material-any recommendations? Also, I have been working on the C Major exercise for about 2 months now! My goal is to completely master the C major at a good tempo before moving on.
Hi jeff, big thanks for this thread, i followed the last one, i think you can make it something special
NO SLAP IN ACADEMICA! Teachers who teach this don't have other music to teach and so they aim for what is contemporary and performance oriented rather than what is musically meaningful and academically necessary.
The main criteria to look for with a teacher is curriculum: do they have the material to offer you to help you to upgrade your knowledge of general music on your instrument. This is practically the whole thing that a good teacher should offer. The other stuff is tying up-type studies. But the body of work that you should be doing is factual, perfect, organized and 100% reliable to help you to improve as a player. If your teacher doesn't have a jazz background, I would very carefully weigh if this is a good teacher to study with. If they teach reading music from a source OTHER than electric bass books or arco-oriented materials, then you could consider these guys for some instruction.
But if they teach slap, rock, chops, metronomes, technique lessons, strings crossings, how to pluck, how to get a gig, or how to invest your millions once you've been signed to Virgin Records and sold trillions of singles, I would look elsewear for a teacher.
Don't master them. Don't learn them at a good tempo. This is performance again! Learn them! Repeat them! Regard them! And play them in 12 keys! But do not master them. Unnecessary and unhelpful to learn this way most of the time.
Yes that dastardly chord tones book
I've only had my copy for a few days but I've had to force myself to put it down at times and not neglect other things I'm working on, such as a book of simple cello pieces I'm using just to brush up on my reading. I've been playing for nineteen years but it's only in the last three or so that I've become aware of how valuable chord tones are. Scales and modes helped me develope technique and an understanding of chord relationships/function but being aware of chord tones have really helped with my musicality and melodic sense. Plus they've changed how I listen to music. I'm now able to listen to certain jazz that used to confuse me and appreciate the beauty of the interaction between the soloist and the rest of the group.
This advice is tough for me to grasp, as it goes counter to what I was taught by classical bass teachers on the upright, who wouldn't let me move on from an etude until it was perfected and this is my default approach to learning something new on the electric bass as well.
What do you feel that the right amount of exposure to an etude or other learning material is?
Roy did say he would advise me when I am ready to move on to the C minor, and in fact already has done so, but I asked for more time with the C Major. Was that a mistake?
My musical personality is to be a total perfectionist and this advice is hard for me to get my brain around.
I understand the confusion! But, classical teachers regard the works being studied as individual representations, whcih they are. This makes them worthy of regard in their highest levels of interpretation. But, outside of the small or large gems of classical musical composition is the area of learning and improvement. If you are clear and knowedgeable of the exercises you've been learning, then move to something else and learn it as well. Go back later to review if you feel the need, but remember that you are learning for edification and musical improvement, not for note-perfect representations of the looser musical styles outside classical repertoir.
The C major things that you were talking about: weren't they exercises? If so, then once you feel that you know them, then learn other exercises. If they are works that require perfection for performance or musical regard then go for the perfection. But it isn't necessary to do this.
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