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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

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#101
Smallmouth_Bass said:
You mentioned earlier in the Part 1 of this thread that you would never do a method DVD or something like that again. Ever consider writing a book with many of the common exercises you give to students including some of the chord tone exercises/studies you mention?
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Did I really say that about never doing a DVD again? I might have meant something else. I can't remember the comment and so I am not sure what I was thinking about.

I would do another DVD again. My last one, the one on Mel Bay is (forgive me) great! It is full of good info. But I can't remember if it contains good lessons. I have to review it and then see if I should do another one with good lesson principles in it.

If you want a suggestion about how to learn a lot of music on your bass, then take a jazz solo and just take the first bar or two and play it in 12 keys. This takes a lot of concentration. DO NOT PERFORM IT! Just do the work to play it, slowly, carefully, over 12 different keys, over a week or more if required. Then go to the next couple of bars and do the same thing. This is a great method for identifying bits of musical content and learning the heck out of them.
 
#102
Fergie Fulton said:
Education has a duty to turn out students that can function in the work place and society, and i'm sorry to say but music is not a functional necessity in a modern eduction system.
Never mind students that there are those who can't read music, and don't know what notes comprise a Cmaj7 chord. What about those that can't read and write, understand basic arithmetic, have social skills to interact in life?

Music has a place for those who choose it, education has more pressing issues than who is getting great music instruction.

That come later and the student funds that.. not tax payer.:)
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I can't say how much I disagree. Just like those who tout athletic programs as "saving kids from the streets" music education did much the same for me in saving me from drugs, and drinking and helped me to care about all my subjects. Would I have gotten a scholarship to college if I didn't have music in my life in high school? I really doubt it. I don't want to pull this thread off into a societal structure and education debate, as that would be too OT, but science has proven actual physical changes in the brain that come from studying music, and I believe it should be part of every child's education, and you better believe I will fund my own children's musical education, but I also fully expect the schools my children attend to offer a music program. I think a great case could be made that studying music helps to better develop the emotional and social life of a child and that it is quite important. Honestly, Fergie, from other posts and dialoques we have had, I can't believe you would take a position against music education in public schools. Is the situation in the UK that bad that schools can't offer music programs?
I really refuse to believe this and when agree to offer our kids nothing more than a utilitarian education to prepare them to join the work-a-day proletariat and give them nothing to enjoy, to treasure and nurture the soul, then is it any wonder dropout rates are soaring?
If this attitude is typical in the UK, then I am deeply saddened for my across the water neighbors.
 
#104
I think we all had a feeling who would be lurking and waiting to comment... I understand how we could get drawn in but as jeff has asked, maybe try and stay on topic? Jeff's threads have spawned others which have dwindled so people come back here looking to argue in some cases... Anyway im almost ranting, hopefully this is on topic, who's transcribing what at the moment? For educational purposes or for fun? As in the 'imitating' side of learning that jeff speaks of that we do on our own...
 
#108
Hi Jeff.

Do you have any suggestions on how to improve ones rhythmic phrasing?

I think I'm pretty weak in the area, and my teacher agrees.

It doesn't come very naturally to me I'm afraid.

It's not just when I solo, but generally I have a hard time coming up with phrases (rhythmically) that fit both the melody and the pattern the drummer is playing.

Thanks in advance!
 
#109
JeffBerlin said:
Did I really say that about never doing a DVD again? I might have meant something else. I can't remember the comment and so I am not sure what I was thinking about.

I would do another DVD again. My last one, the one on Mel Bay is (forgive me) great! It is full of good info. But I can't remember if it contains good lessons. I have to review it and then see if I should do another one with good lesson principles in it.

If you want a suggestion about how to learn a lot of music on your bass, then take a jazz solo and just take the first bar or two and play it in 12 keys. This takes a lot of concentration. DO NOT PERFORM IT! Just do the work to play it, slowly, carefully, over 12 different keys, over a week or more if required. Then go to the next couple of bars and do the same thing. This is a great method for identifying bits of musical content and learning the heck out of them.
Click to expand...

I thought I had read that, but I just took a quick look back, and apparently not (my apologies).

You did have this to say when questioned about having written any instruction books/cds/dvds:

JeffBerlin said:
Years ago I published a chord tone book, but that was it. There are lots of great music available to practice, and so I didn't feel the need to clutter up the marketplace when good stuff is already out there.

The Players School has its own curriculum. I understand that our guitar teacher uses different books as does our drum teacher. I have a ton of sources for learning and, depending on the player, I choose what is the best. Often I just write out lessons because, I have a sort of custom fitted-type way to assign homework or give lessons. Some guys get the same stuff, and some guys don't. Not everybody fits into a mold and for this reason, I want guys to improve according to their own needs.
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#110
Jeff, I've been motivated to work on improving my reading through this thread. My problem however is not that I don't know how to read but rather that I never worked on sight reading skills. I'm now having to go back to basic levels to improve real time reading(all practised out of time). I've obtained books of cello and trombone etudes but they are very straight in phrasing aspects i.e they focus on mostly 8th and 16th note passages. Should i become fluent and confident at reading this type of thing before trying to incorporate syncopation, ties, rests, etc? Or should i simultaneously work on reading melodies of standards or compositions that include all aspects of reading?
 
#111
engedi1 said:
Honestly, Fergie, from other posts and dialoques we have had, I can't believe you would take a position against music education in public schools. Is the situation in the UK that bad that schools can't offer music programs?

If this attitude is typical in the UK, then I am deeply saddened for my across the water neighbors.
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I am not against music education, i show you the realities of education in a modern world, not just music.:)
Without reading to much into social problems of drink and drugs, but it is a focus away from such things that get the results.

If that focus is music then fair enough, but it can be, books, art, maths, physics etc. anything that focuses and applies the brain to view these as the primary issue and the others as secondary. ( Jeff teaches that in music, thats why the results are so good, it is the focus on musical things that does it)

You will find no post by me that says Music education is bad, you will find no post by me saying an Academic music education is bad, because i have had both and support both.

Yes music does en-rich a life but it is not an educaton systems job to fill it. That can be done by the person in their own time and now we get to the point of the matter. How many would actually do it if they had to seek it out?
Maybe out of a 1000 being taught if 20 or so take it further and the rest do nothing more because out of the teaching enviroment, where it is placed in their laps, they now have to put in some effort.
What if music education could focus on that 20 or so from the start, the money wasted on the rest could be put to better use? But then it could be said that the others at least had a chance, but that chance as it is called has effected those that truely would benefit from more.

This is not a UK thing, it is me looking objectively at the situation as i know it. School budgets are being cut, so things either get cut or watered down. So say we cut Math, then what? All kids need to understand math( or at its basic, arithmatic) so now we send them to tutors outside school to teach them?
But i ask myself "why would you say such a thing and not direct it to me personaly"?......unless the idea had been put there before in which case you are working with someone else view, not yours.:)

If anyone want to discuss music fair enough, but if it gets away from music then at least have the understanding of what is being said and the implications it has. Music deserves to be in everybodys life but you have to define music and what it means to the person.:)
 
#112
Hi Jeff. Firstly, allow me to echo the sentiments of many others in thanking you for spending your valuable time with us on Talkbass. Your words have been just the inspiration I needed to get me off my butt and practicing into the New Year. I was just wondering if you could share your take on something that a lot of bass teachers (even ones who are amazing players) are teaching, and that is the use of recognizable 'shapes' on the fingerboard when playing. For example, when you play a Cma7 arpeggio are you thinking 'where can I find a shape I'm used to playing' or are you thinking 'where is C E G B in this area of the neck'? The whole shape thing, though convenient, strikes me as a bit of a copout in the sense that one need not know why the shapes work, or even what they are because 'if it sounds good, it is good'. Just wanted your view on this. Thanks again, and here's to more TalkMUSIC on Talkbass!
 
#113
hey jeff, i was hoping you could answer a question for me. i studied with charlie banacos about 10 years ago for about 2 years. i always meant to get back to it but now, unfortunately, charlie has passed and jazz and music education has lost a great resource. when i read his advertisements he mentions the "now classic exercises on autumn leaves and giant steps" etc. can you shed some light as to what these exercises are? unfortunately, it will now have to be his students, such as yourself, who pass on his knowledge as we are unable to get it from the master himself anymore.
thanks
 
#114
shwashwa said:
hey jeff, i was hoping you could answer a question for me. i studied with charlie banacos about 10 years ago for about 2 years. i always meant to get back to it but now, unfortunately, charlie has passed and jazz and music education has lost a great resource. when i read his advertisements he mentions the "now classic exercises on autumn leaves and giant steps" etc. can you shed some light as to what these exercises are? unfortunately, it will now have to be his students, such as yourself, who pass on his knowledge as we are unable to get it from the master himself anymore.
thanks
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+1

I really wanted to study with Charlie and was very sad to hear of his passing. Aside from what shwasha mentioned above, are there any books you know of that include any of the information that Charlie gave in his lessons?
 
#116
aidan784 said:
I think we all had a feeling who would be lurking and waiting to comment... I understand how we could get drawn in but as jeff has asked, maybe try and stay on topic? Jeff's threads have spawned others which have dwindled so people come back here looking to argue in some cases... Anyway im almost ranting, hopefully this is on topic, who's transcribing what at the moment? For educational purposes or for fun? As in the 'imitating' side of learning that jeff speaks of that we do on our own...
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Hello from L.A. I just found a computer and would like to jump in for a few minutes.

By now, you guys have identified the people who need my validation to the point that they will never go away. They cannot go away and they never will because this is an admission of loss.

I repeat my earlier comment: IGNORE ANYBODY THAT YOU KNOW ISN'T HERE FOR MUSIC'S SAKE! There are a couple and by now you know who they are by the manner that they contribute their comments. Just never answer no matter what. Never read them. Don't answer anybody who isn't here to lift this thread. I can't do this alone. I need the serious guys to help.

Thank you.
 
#117
engedi1 said:
My bad, won't do it again, I promise!!!
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Cool! It is hard to ignore responding to these guys' comments. It is up to whoever comes here to decide who they wish to respond to, but, they can have a lean, fun thread if they resist the urge to comment about statements from some guys with way too much time on their hands. Chin up! We are all in the same boat over here.
 
#119
For any that may be interested, Cliff Engel has just posted an article about his lessons with Charlie Banacos. Jeff, it reminds me much of what you have said about your experiences with Mr. Banacos. In fact, your name is mentioned twice in the article. Here is the link:[Invalid or Expired Link Removed].
 
#120
aidan784 said:
Haha it's no problem it's a fair debate to have and i lurked through all the ones in the last thread but i see jeff's point... :)
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I don't want to debate anything over here. I want to offer concrete musical truths. Art is the Universe, but it takes an exact science to build the spaceship to get there. I am only interested in discussing the construction part of music. How one uses the fact is their art and therefore, their own business.
 
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