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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

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#121
fahrendorff said:
Hi Jeff.

Do you have any suggestions on how to improve ones rhythmic phrasing?

I think I'm pretty weak in the area, and my teacher agrees.

It doesn't come very naturally to me I'm afraid.

It's not just when I solo, but generally I have a hard time coming up with phrases (rhythmically) that fit both the melody and the pattern the drummer is playing.

Thanks in advance!
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I am here with the great drummer Danny Gottlieb. He suggests that you practice slowly until the phrases feel natural and second nature.

My thinking is to take "complete" lines of music and play them in 12 keys. Two bars of jazz lines are very easy to grasp and therefore easy to practice. Practice these things for a while and your phrasing should improve.
 
#122
Eminentbass said:
Jeff, I've been motivated to work on improving my reading through this thread. My problem however is not that I don't know how to read but rather that I never worked on sight reading skills. I'm now having to go back to basic levels to improve real time reading(all practised out of time). I've obtained books of cello and trombone etudes but they are very straight in phrasing aspects i.e they focus on mostly 8th and 16th note passages. Should i become fluent and confident at reading this type of thing before trying to incorporate syncopation, ties, rests, etc? Or should i simultaneously work on reading melodies of standards or compositions that include all aspects of reading?
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IMPORTANT! There is a difference between working on one's sight reading and working on one's reading. You don't become a good sight reader by practicing it. You become a good sight reader by practicing reading. This means reading a lot of stuff sometimes over and over before going to the next piece of music and working on it. Big band bass charts are some of the most varied and sometimes compliated reading that a bass player can work on. Trombone and classical music are neck & neck for level below that. Just remember that it took a while before you could read English. It will take a little time (not as long) to read music.
 
#123
@war said:
Hi Jeff. Firstly, allow me to echo the sentiments of many others in thanking you for spending your valuable time with us on Talkbass. Your words have been just the inspiration I needed to get me off my butt and practicing into the New Year. I was just wondering if you could share your take on something that a lot of bass teachers (even ones who are amazing players) are teaching, and that is the use of recognizable 'shapes' on the fingerboard when playing. For example, when you play a Cma7 arpeggio are you thinking 'where can I find a shape I'm used to playing' or are you thinking 'where is C E G B in this area of the neck'? The whole shape thing, though convenient, strikes me as a bit of a copout in the sense that one need not know why the shapes work, or even what they are because 'if it sounds good, it is good'. Just wanted your view on this. Thanks again, and here's to more TalkMUSIC on Talkbass!
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I have never thought shapes because shapes don't represent musical principles. They represent physical ways to play certain harmonic lines. Shapes take place after the fact; if one learns a harmonic idea, it is hard to deny that these ideas can be played in certain shapes. But I would strongly recommend that you never look at music as a shape, but as the musical notes that they are. The shape recognition comes later, if at all.
 
#124
shwashwa said:
hey jeff, i was hoping you could answer a question for me. i studied with charlie banacos about 10 years ago for about 2 years. i always meant to get back to it but now, unfortunately, charlie has passed and jazz and music education has lost a great resource. when i read his advertisements he mentions the "now classic exercises on autumn leaves and giant steps" etc. can you shed some light as to what these exercises are? unfortunately, it will now have to be his students, such as yourself, who pass on his knowledge as we are unable to get it from the master himself anymore.
thanks
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I never studied those things with Charlie, at least, I wasn't aware if I did. I was curious about that one myself for a long time, but never got around to asking Charlie about it.
 
#125
Jeff,
Thank you for participating in this thread and helping educate us. I've got a question about the dreaded metronome.

I played oboe through all of my adolescence and ended up going to college for performance on it (later changed majors out of music). When I got out of college I picked up the bass to maintain my musical outlet. Growing up in a classical setting the metronome was heavily enforced in practice. With my current playing I still use the metronome during my warm ups and when I am learning difficult passages. I've read your thoughts on the subject and watched a the video you made. I humbly beg your forgiveness because I still don't get it.

I feel like I can lock in with a drummer with absolutely no problems in a live setting. I feel like I can easily play to a metronome when I am solo. However, I still feel like I should always be working to improve my timing and internal groove. I know that if you counted a 4 beat at 100bmp and then told me to groove, then picked up the beat 2 minutes later I would have probably lost it- or at least I wouldn't be perfectly on 100bmp anymore.

Is that type of skill set even important? Should I be the rock that the rest of the band stands on? I've been told that I am the "Tempo Nazi" of whatever band I play in and I feel that it's because of al l the time I've spent with the metronome. How does one build a rock solid rhythm, tempo, and groove without using the metronome?

I apologize if this has been discussed somewhere else I didn't notice a post that made me understand it.
 
#126
JeffBerlin said:
Next time try a Jim Hall solo. Don't transcribe pop music except to imitate what you hear from the players. Transcriptions should enlighten one, to stimulate one's sense of harmony, melody and rhythm. Melodic players do this best for guys who wish to know how they operate at the subconcious level.
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Paydirt, I hope: Jim Hall with Ron Carter live (Alone Together); Autumn Leaves. I'll get to see what a good guitar player is doing, and see how a good bass player handles this glorious old chestnut as well. The answer to the question how do you eat an elephant, one bite at a time, applies.
 
#127
Jeff, thanks for your great contributions and insight.

I have a question: do you have any tactic for memorising the names of the notes in chords ? As when I can sit down with my bass I work out the note names by knowing the notes on the finger board ( 7th fret E-string "B" ect ) but if someone asked me without my bass "What are the names of the notes in C7 ?" I would be stuck.
 
#128
Hi again Jeff. I am wondering how to actually go about practicing reading music. For me it's sort of like im learning the piece, for example i'll read a bar then when it comes to the next i'll play the 1st again and then the 2nd and this process continues. Or I'll read say four bars then take a break from reading and sometimes play what i have just read, then proceed to next four etc.. I'm not sure this is the right way but if you could suggest how to practice more effectively or the right way? Thank you very much, I am so happy about starting to learn properly!
 
#129
Coeball said:
Jeff, thanks for your great contributions and insight.

I have a question: do you have any tactic for memorising the names of the notes in chords ? As when I can sit down with my bass I work out the note names by knowing the notes on the finger board ( 7th fret E-string "B" ect ) but if someone asked me without my bass "What are the names of the notes in C7 ?" I would be stuck.
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Make flashcards with 3x5 index cards. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing it over and over again.
 
#130
Jeff, regarding moving a two measure or so phrase through all twelve keys, say a two bar phrase over a minor chord, would you also make the alterations so this phrase covers your ten basic chord types? Something to do once or twice? or is it better to just move on and do another two bar phrase through all twelve keys.
 
#131
First of all thank you mr Berlin.
Can anyone please tell me the best way to musically practice my chord tones I'm learning? I'm getting bored just going through each individual chord.. I need to make them musical or apply it somehow

I don't even know where to start because most of the stuff I play now is rock blues funk purely minor pentatonic.
 
#132
cire113 said:
First of all thank you mr Berlin.
Can anyone please tell me the best way to musically practice my chord tones I'm learning? I'm getting bored just going through each individual chord.. I need to make them musical or apply it somehow

I don't even know where to start because most of the stuff I play now is rock blues funk purely minor pentatonic.
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Please send me a PM with your e mail address. I'll send through a copy of Jeff's August 1998 BP column that will give you what you need to start here.
 
#134
Please does anyone have a readable copy of mr berlins 1998 bass article.. "not just chops"... ???

Or can anyone care to explain it to me... I already know my chords...


Thank you so much


commreman was kinda enough to email it to me but is so small and when i zoom in its all blured :(
 
#135
cire113 said:
Please does anyone have a readable copy of mr berlins 1998 bass article.. "not just chops"... ???

Or can anyone care to explain it to me... I already know my chords...


Thank you so much


commreman was kinda enough to email it to me but is so small and when i zoom in its all blured :(
Click to expand...
I will have it rescanned tomorrow and saved as a PDF. It should be more readable in that format. I can get to this tomorrow afternoon.
 
#140
MichaelScott said:
I feel like I can lock in with a drummer with absolutely no problems in a live setting. I feel like I can easily play to a metronome when I am solo. However, I still feel like I should always be working to improve my timing and internal groove. I know that if you counted a 4 beat at 100bmp and then told me to groove, then picked up the beat 2 minutes later I would have probably lost it- or at least I wouldn't be perfectly on 100bmp anymore.

Is that type of skill set even important? Should I be the rock that the rest of the band stands on? I've been told that I am the "Tempo Nazi" of whatever band I play in and I feel that it's because of al l the time I've spent with the metronome. How does one build a rock solid rhythm, tempo, and groove without using the metronome?

I apologize if this has been discussed somewhere else I didn't notice a post that made me understand it.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting topic, although I guess it's been thrown about a few times already. One interesting thing though, is that it's also possible to become *too* dependent on metronomes. When I started playing jazz, people I knew recommended practicing with a metronome on 2 and 4. At the very least, this started giving me an idea of pulse and something to compare my sense of time to. But I found later on that if I was playing with a group and the drummer stopped playing 2 and 4 on the hi-hat, it would be easy for me to get lost, or slow down.

But there's another aspect I'd like to mull over...from watching Jeff's DVD, the main impression I get is that he's opposed to practicing things in time when you're still learning them. When your fingers don't quite have a grasp on the notes yet.

But I've found that I can run into time problems even with stuff that fits under my fingers quite easily. I noticed with my previous band that sometimes when we would play, say for example, "Sunshine of Your Love", that I would slow down sometimes when the guitarist would take a solo.

Now, "Sunshine of Your Love" is an easy riff and I've played it a bazillion times, and the drummer kept solid time. So I'm not sure, maybe it was lack of confidence or something. Keep in mind that this isn't really a metronome question - I guess I'm just thinking out loud that I'd love to have fantastic time, but how do you practice something like that?

(and the exercise in my sig is meant mainly as a test of sorts)
 
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