Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[chadhargis]

Regarding your putting your foot in your mouth, maybe you really don't do this. You just might be like me, a guy who has an opinion and feels that you are right due to your experience in life and your subject.

I think most people have a little filter in their head that stops them from saying things they know would be better left unsaid. I don't have such a filter. I only hear what I say once it comes out. Mouth ahead of my brain syndrome.

I put a spin on it and tell people it's brutal honesty. I say what everyone else thinks.

 

[aidan784]

Sounds like it will be very much worth it though! Is it for your new record? England is ok, different food from what you're talking about though! You seem to be right about what you have said about things over here though, about more interest in the performance of music as opposed to the learning of it.. I have a friend starting a 'performance course' at college in a few months and i haven't managed to talk him out of it and urge him to find a great teacher... Myself, I'm 17, been playing around 3 years 'self taught' and everything you speak about is ringing true with me, particularly about how can you teach yourself that what you don't know. However, the search for a teacher has been unsuccessful, I'm actually the one who you suggested should try to contact Zoltan Dekany and he's quite local but his website is down at the moment... I am very eager to find a GREAT teacher, but it's hard to know who's great you know? I'm grateful though that i now have something productive to work on in chord tones and reading trombone music ... Ps: in an interview of yours i read, i found it fascinating that you mentioned stanley clarke as one of your last influences in that he sounded so unique you knew that was the time for you to find your own unique sound, is there truth in that? Cheers...

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think most people have a little filter in their head that stops them from saying things they know would be better left unsaid. I don't have such a filter. I only hear what I say once it comes out. Mouth ahead of my brain syndrome.

I put a spin on it and tell people it's brutal honesty. I say what everyone else thinks.

I generalize honest statements and never, ever, not once, never in a billion years will I make it personal. Example, good time comes from knowing music and one's instrument. Truth, clear, to the point. I generalize certain facts. Guys who take these generalizations personally get mad. As I said, only some of those that I talk about complain. And the honest ones who fall into what I am generalizing about see the trueh and may try do something about their playing. Actually, I see myself as a good messenger.

 

[JeffBerlin]

aidan784-Sounds like it will be very much worth it though! Is it for your new record? England is ok, different food from what you're talking about though! You seem to be right about what you have said about things over here though, about more interest in the performance of music as opposed to the learning of it.

JEFF - I am so impressed that you understand where I am coming from when I made that statement. One can always find quality teachers in most places, but you may have to really look around for them. England is one of those places where you will have to really look around for teachers who are inspired to teach music rather than performance. They are there, but you have to really look for them. Nobody needs to go to a teacher or a school to learn a principle that every successful performer learned for free.

aidan784 - I have a friend starting a 'performance course' at college in a few months and i haven't managed to talk him out of it and urge him to find a great teacher... Myself, I'm 17, been playing around 3 years 'self taught' and everything you speak about is ringing true with me, particularly about how can you teach yourself that what you don't know. However, the search for a teacher has been unsuccessful, I'm actually the one who you suggested should try to contact Zoltan Dekany and he's quite local but his website is down at the moment... I am very eager to find a GREAT teacher, but it's hard to know who's great you know? I'm grateful though that i now have something productive to work on in chord tones and reading trombone music ... Ps: in an interview of yours i read, i found it fascinating that you mentioned stanley clarke as one of your last influences in that he sounded so unique you knew that was the time for you to find your own unique sound, is there truth in that? Cheers...

JEFF- If your friend is attending a school where jazz is THE center of academic instruction, then he should be OK. Students perform at The Players School of Music as well, but it is not focused on performance. It is focused on performing musical principles with other like-minded students for academic reasons. Academia is THE core to great results in music. Even if played with a Who-like style, if the musical content is there, then you are doing OK. It is only that jazz cannot be played without some decent skill and musical knowledge, where rock or blues generally can.

 

[chadhargis]

Sometimes the truth is bitter, but without bitter there is no sweet.

 

[Jim Campbell]

I generalize honest statements and never, ever, not once, never in a billion years will I make it personal. Example, good time comes from knowing music and one's instrument. Truth, clear, to the point. I generalize certain facts. Guys who take these generalizations personally get mad. As I said, only some of those that I talk about complain. And the honest ones who fall into what I am generalizing about see the trueh and may try do something about their playing. Actually, I see myself as a good messenger.

chalk it up to the fame thing......there's a percentage of people out there that will take shots at mother teresa....you may present a slightly larger target....

but all kidding aside it would appear that the static has been squelched,at least for now......thanx again jeff and i'm off to the woodshed

 

[JeffBerlin]

Sometimes the truth is bitter, but without bitter there is no sweet.

Well said!

 

[JeffBerlin]

chalk it up to the fame thing......there's a percentage of people out there that will take shots at mother teresa....you may present a slightly larger target....

but all kidding aside it would appear that the static has been squelched,at least for now......thanx again jeff and i'm off to the woodshed

Especially these days. I'm almost 250 again.

My father used to say that even God had enemies. Interesting, isn't it! Some people just have GOT to be ticked off at something.

 

[JeffBerlin]

We can easily start a BBQ thread in OT.

"MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! Bar-Be-Que!" Homer Simpson

 

[Roy Vogt]

Especially these days. I'm almost 250 again.

My father used to say that even God had enemies. Interesting, isn't it! Some people just have GOT to be ticked off at something.

Don't know if you can go there (especially after the Barbecue Seminar), but my wife talked me into Joel Fuhrman's diet. 80% Vegetarian/Vegan with "clean foods" (organic and not pre-prepared). The weight's coming off and I'm hitting the gym again-maybe the next trade show I won't be "Chunky Boy" <lol>
Oh, yeah-bass content-(Sorry John and Pac-Man)
I can remember an old Guitar Player interview where you were talking about having to adjust to Bill Bruford's feel. I can listen to those old recordings and hear just how on top of the beat his snare is, for example.
Of course, I live in Nashville where drummers worship at the altar of Jim Gordon and Jim Keltner and the backbeat is WAAAAY relaxed. I've heard you play with Danny Gottleib and also Jason Marsalis live and of course on record with a ton of players including Vinnie Coliauta, Bob Moses and Chad Wackerman. Do you find you have to make conscious adjustments to your feel depending on the drummer or are you so "in the moment" these days that it happens automatically?

 

[jallenbass]

Some people just have GOT to be ticked off at something.

That's why groups divide into factions. They run out of enemies.

Sorry. OT.

 

[bass12]

After searching for the right teacher, I'm pleased to say that I found someone and have just taken my first lesson in over ten years. Finally, I'm getting things together and taking some steps to really understand jazz harmony (and, by extension, some of the music I've been playing for years). I haven't felt this excited about music in ages! I'm directing this post at Jeff because reading his thoughts over the years greatly influenced my decision to open some doors and get out of the dark. Thanks for the inspiration, Jeff.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

You do not need to go to anybody to learn how to slap, tap, play two handed technique, fretless, rock, blues, chops building, technique oriented, one hand vs the other hand, string crossings of any kind, metronomic practice, or anything else that one pays to learn that one can actually learn for free.

Some questions:

1) You mention that you do not need lessons to learn exercises and other such things. What about the mechanics of learning an instrument when starting? I imagine that the players you get are most likely beyond this, but lets say for children or someone starting. There must be a certain amount of work done that concentrates on just the mechanics before delving into the music.

2) When you transcribe music, do you also transcribe the harmony (the chords) and place it above the staff along with the standard notation? Do you have any specific exercises to transcribe harmony without the use of a chordal instrument?

 

[chadhargis]

1) You mention that you do not need lessons to learn exercises and other such things. What about the mechanics of learning an instrument when starting? I imagine that the players you get are most likely beyond this, but lets say for children or someone starting. There must be a certain amount of work done that concentrates on just the mechanics before delving into the music.

This is EXACTLY where I am. I have read many Internet resources and "how to" sites regarding music and basic bass playing. While I learned a lot, nothing can replace the scrutiny and critique of a teacher.

The bad thing about books, DVDs, or the internet is someone like me tends to move ahead too quickly. I get too excited to see whats next and don't master the basics. Private instruction gives you "just enough" to work on from week to week so you can build up slowly, focusing on the quality of learning not quantity.

You have to start somewhere, and being physically able to play without injury is a big fundamental. One of the first things my teacher told me when I started playing is that I was holding the bass wrong, was too tense in my shoulders, and my thumb position on the back of the neck was wrong. He told me that I can get away with that now, but I'll hit a road block later.

Even the greatest athletes work on the fundamentals. Most college and pro basketball teams have a shooting coach, yet anyone who plays at that level has been shooting the ball since they were a toddler. That coach's job is to work with them on their shooting motion and get it perfect.

Same thing applies to a bass teacher teaching a newbie like me. Before we get into advanced topics, I have to learn the basic motor skills needed to play or else it's all for nothing.

 

[chadhargis]

This thread to me, is all about hanging with Jeff, and until I can dig up the scratch to attend the player's school this thread is my only chance to do so!

Here! Here!

I'm starting my teacher brown nosing early.

 

[Eminentbass]

But, I'm a middle aged crotchity guy (with a soft center. Heck! I'm a freekin' movie STEREOTYPE!) and I've learned a thing or two and one of the things that I have learned, if it works for me, it will work for you because we are the same species and we are after the same things. In music no matter the style, we all want to play and so I cut out the fat and get to the meat (Wow! I almost snuck a little BBQ in again! Sorry!)

What am I up to? I have been practicing for two solid weeks on a 44 bar bass part extracted from a Ravel piece that I am going to record on Monday with Richard Drexler. Yesterday, I played the bass part without a mistake,after two weeks of hours a day practice. The part was written by me. I took the piano part and wrote a bass part from it, using some right hand and some left hand parts to create a new part that gels perfectly with what Richard will be playing. My problem is that the darn thing doesn't sit still. It is all over the neck and it took me a long time and a lot of work to learn how to play it. The ironical thing is that when we finish recording the tune, it won't be any longer than around one minute.

Middle aged crotchity movie stereotype? Jack Nicholson plays bass?

Actually what caught my attention here is the fact that weeks and hours of practice will amount to to one minute on tape. I recently read an interview with Jonas Helborg where he mentions that he spends hours working on classical pieces for no other reason than to perform them alone in his living room.

I'm not on that level yet, but this is where the love of music comes in. I'm a working musician who earns a living as a sideman. To be quite frank, I hate some music I play and sometimes the job is rewarding but most of the time the music is not demanding. I'm ok with that to a point. I view it as work and myself as a tradesman, not an artist when in this context.

What prompted me to comment here is that all participating here regularly, love music for music's sake. To me that means learning and constantly striving for improvement because it's what I love. I spend hours on music that will probably never see public performance by me, because I love the music and just being able to play it makes me happy and creates the balance between being a tradesman and a "music for music's sake" person.

And with that in mind, there are probably a ton of people here in the same boat as me who will probably wear grooves into the disc when the one minute of Ravel gets to us. And we will be able to on some level relate to but definetly admire and respect the work that went into it.

 

[shatner]

Hi Jeff (if you're out there).
I've been wondering what you're take on the following is because I admire you greatly and I suspect we're similar in the defence of our opinions even though my opinion is definitely the antithesis of yours.

I don't teach much anymore, spend my life playing for a living now but I do love teaching even though I have lost a lot of faith in the education system here in the UK because it is all about money (getting the numbers in) and teaching a set curriculum that you may not believe in.

Anyway, my issue is with tab. I know you hate it and I don't ever use it myself. I am a reader and most of my sideman work involves backing acts and shows. As a bandleader I obviously don't entertain tab. It's hard for brass players to get there head round it . So what I guess I'm trying to say is that I think any bass player that is a 'musician' first and foremost may not even know that something like tab even exists. It is not a part of your world.

However, I did become inclined to use it as an educational tool . I know that just by reading that sentence your claws will have extended. I remember having an argument with the head of the music department because he saw me using it to show an arpeggio pattern in various fingerings ie. major arpeggio starting on 4th finger, 2nd finger and 1st finger. He bitched to me about how they didn't allow the use of tab because they want to promote reading above all else. Being the argumentative so and so that I am I couldn't let it go and wouldn't back down. He's a friend of mine and he knows that I'm a good reader so I think he eventually let me proceed based on me doing a Jack Bauer-esque "You're just going to have to trust me".

My point involved several things. First of all I divided the lesson schedules into 2 parts. The second section was devoted to reading so 50% of the lesson was reading intensive anyway. The tab was used specifically for indication of fingering in showing scales, arpeggios etc. Something that is much harder to demonstrate with traditional notation. In turn, my reason for this is based around getting the information into the students heads as easily as possible. Elements of music such as arpeggios, scales, intervals etc. are sound based concepts that exist with or without music notation. I want to place the intervals into the students heads both aurally and on the fingerboard without the confusion of notes on paper. For beginners or low level students they may spend more time worrying about reading the notes than actually assimilating the harmonic/melodic info I'm trying to provide. This is a very basic description of how I go about this because this is obviously bolstered by using these few tab patterns in combination with teaching of aural, harmony, improv, reading etc. to reach a defined goal. Sadly it also based on getting them through predefined exams that I have no control over.

I don't advocate the use of tab in learning pieces, songs etc. but I think it can still have it's place in a learning environment where assimilation and understanding of every musical area is all. If the student was to rely on tab then I can see major problems. But then again, I still don't understand how anyone can actually learn a song using tab alone because it is arhythmic by nature.

I completely understand where you are coming from with all of the things you say about music education and I pretty much agree with everything you say because I know what you are up against regarding students/pupils and the system at large. However, I also have issue with everything you say because I'm stubborn, argumentative and opinionated, although my girlfriend says I'm just passionate about what I do and I just gets misunderstood. You mention one of your guidelines for becoming a better player and something in my head just pops up and says "Hold on, that's not strictly true. What about..."

I think this happens with a lot of bass players when they read your comments because you have so much conviction in what you say and come from such a place of reverence (you are obviously very, very good) that we instinctively have to question those aspects of our own playing/teaching. That's why there are so many heated points of view and debates on this thread IMHO. Anyway, sorry for the length of the post but I'd love to hear your take on it.

Mark

 

[JeffBerlin]

Don't know if you can go there (especially after the Barbecue Seminar), but my wife talked me into Joel Fuhrman's diet. 80% Vegetarian/Vegan with "clean foods" (organic and not pre-prepared). The weight's coming off and I'm hitting the gym again-maybe the next trade show I won't be "Chunky Boy" <lol>
Oh, yeah-bass content-(Sorry John and Pac-Man)
I can remember an old Guitar Player interview where you were talking about having to adjust to Bill Bruford's feel. I can listen to those old recordings and hear just how on top of the beat his snare is, for example.
Of course, I live in Nashville where drummers worship at the altar of Jim Gordon and Jim Keltner and the backbeat is WAAAAY relaxed. I've heard you play with Danny Gottleib and also Jason Marsalis live and of course on record with a ton of players including Vinnie Coliauta, Bob Moses and Chad Wackerman. Do you find you have to make conscious adjustments to your feel depending on the drummer or are you so "in the moment" these days that it happens automatically?

I "feel" drummers instantly. It is a good point of my overall musicality. I used to be asked to overdub "normal" bass parts on recordings that were already done, but that the bass part didn't sit with the drums. I got called in all the time to fix these things (why they didn't call me first, I don't know)> I could place my bass beat even if the drums "breathed' a little bit, almost always playing along with their time. I do this live, but, doing this live is way easier becuase you are both relating to the time, or, actually, just playing, not realy thinking.

 

[JeffBerlin]

After searching for the right teacher, I'm pleased to say that I found someone and have just taken my first lesson in over ten years. Finally, I'm getting things together and taking some steps to really understand jazz harmony (and, by extension, some of the music I've been playing for years). I haven't felt this excited about music in ages! I'm directing this post at Jeff because reading his thoughts over the years greatly influenced my decision to open some doors and get out of the dark. Thanks for the inspiration, Jeff.

My pleasure. There is nothing like a great music teacher. Forget those guys with clicks and performance principles! Information rules

 

[JeffBerlin]

Smallmouth_Bass - Some questions:

1) You mention that you do not need lessons to learn exercises and other such things. What about the mechanics of learning an instrument when starting? I imagine that the players you get are most likely beyond this, but lets say for children or someone starting. There must be a certain amount of work done that concentrates on just the mechanics before delving into the music.

JEFF- When a new player read, say a G on music paper, then they have to play that note. This is a mechanical approach to playing, and for a musical reason. The more that one used their technique to represent music, the more that their technique is developed. In the case of slapping, tapping or other physical manners of playing, these are always self taught principles, not worthy of content to warrent paying money to a guy to learn how to do. How do I know this? Because ever single slapper/tapper learned how to do these techniques for free, through their own efforts, without the help of a teacher. If these principle have no success whatsoever in academics, then why would anyone pay money to learn them. Written notes solves all things and then some..

Smallmouth_Bass - 2) When you transcribe music, do you also transcribe the harmony (the chords) and place it above the staff along with the standard notation? Do you have any specific exercises to transcribe harmony without the use of a chordal instrument.

There are no specific exercises that I am aware of, except to do it. Just do not transcribe rock or blues. These musical styles are way better acquired through imitating, trying out what you hear off the CD's that you listen to. Jazz solo win out in the "Best Things You Can Trascribe" category if you wish to learn meaningful music to help your playing. Ear training may help you with this.