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John Entwistle!

#801
Thunder_Fingers said:
It is possible i have gotten the whole thing wrong, but after what i have read about early the who, and what tactician here is saying, it might seem as there was a much bigger musical community back then..

it feels kinda weird that many of my idols are dead many years before i even considered a music career (John Entwistle, Phil Lynott and Keith Moon) I dont have the time, but i realy want to learn to play drums like he do.. i heard something about him never using the symbals?
Click to expand...

Keith never used a HiHat. he did actually use one in the early Who days, and on a TV performance of I Cant Explain, he played with a HiHat and didnt hit it with his sticks. he just worked the pedal until it fell apart completely.
 
#805
Thunder_Fingers said:
Keith went more crazy on everything else instead :p i am tempted to ask the drummer in my new band to try and play more like keith on sone of the songs :p

but i must seriously recomend "Bass Culture" i almost got a tear in my eye reading the 2 intro's..
Click to expand...

i love Bass Culture. it is the source of 99.9% of my GAS. definetly tell your drummer to play like Keith. your consious will love you for trying to get something really cool going with your band.
 
#806
My profile:
Influences and Teachers:
everyone i see, hear and get to play with.

...and keith moon.
Click to expand...
When I first started playing in a band, it was on drums and because of Keith Moon - I just loved everything about his playing. If you pay attention to his drumming, he didn't necessarily emphasize a particular beat (like the 1 or 2). He provided punctuation for the lead part (the melody). His lack of consistent quarter-notes on the hi-hat, left a huge gap for Entwistle (and Townsend) to fill. Very few drummers could pull this off because it also takes having the right people around you to make it work.

Entwistle allowed Moon to be the great drummer he was.
 
#807
driver800 said:
My profile:

When I first started playing in a band, it was on drums and because of Keith Moon - I just loved everything about his playing. If you pay attention to his drumming, he didn't necessarily emphasize a particular beat (like the 1 or 2). He provided punctuation for the lead part (the melody). His lack of consistent quarter-notes on the hi-hat, left a huge gap for Entwistle (and Townsend) to fill. Very few drummers could pull this off because it also takes having the right people around you to make it work.

Entwistle allowed Moon to be the great drummer he was.
Click to expand...

that is a perfect explanation of how Keith worked. i couldnt have said it better.
 
#808
In reply to a couple of comment about the mid 60's. Yes the music community was much much bigger than it is now. Remember no one was able to fill a club with a disco - playing records was something you did just at the beginning of the evening and then in the breaks. Every venue would normally have two bands - so with these Who gigs, we'd go on for an hour at say 7.30 then the Who at 8.30 then us again at 9.30 and then the Who again for an hour at 10.30 for an 11.30 finish (which was when pubs had to close back in those days) If it was a club then the times would be later but the play about the same - an hour on and an hour off. Now there still are the same number of clubs - so imagine how amny bands you need to cover all of these every day they open with two bands - get the picture? Music shops were buzzin' even though the cost of equipment was in real terms about 5x more expensive - like getting a Rickenbacker 330 for $6500. Marshal amps and a 4x12 cab would be about £150 - but when I worked in a government office I got £7 a week. Do the numbers!! We got paid £13 as a band regularly and that might come in 3 or 4 times a week - so you can see I doubled my take home pay by playing full time. Difficult to do nowadays.

The playing scene was huge, with players getting to know each other quite well because of this double booking culture - and you always shared changing rooms or the toilets with the other guys (funny - not very many women involved in those days). It was very much more friendly than I've seen now - bands really helped each other out with equipment, or even lending you a musician if your's went missing. Or the whole band if they were indisposed - which happened twice with the Who - once when their old managment turned up and reclaimed their transport - we all had to go home in our van with all the equipment piled in (see my other post about Pete nearly crashing us) and another time when we had to go on as there was some domestic unpleasantness when one of their relatives turned up for an huge arguement. I guess getting famous in those days was more about ego than the money. There was no marketing, no high level management control, no merchandising, no recod sales going on at gigs. By today's standards it was all very amateurish. But every day was huge fun. And although drugs weren't illegal (yes such a time did exist!) not much of it was about - and we'd have been to scared to try anyway. (I was told once that Pete had managed to get some wierd tobacco called hemp).
 
#809
aah.. im wishing i was so much older than i am, there is to cold between bands today, usually have 2 - 3 other bands they hang around with. though i feel other bassists like "competition", i realy wish i had more bass playing friends i could discuss and jam with (hell, musical friends..)

not to mention that i hate DJ's, removing us who does this for the love of the music.
 
#810
I'll swap my 60 years for your age Thunder - careful what you wish for mate. Course, what I'd like is to know what I know now AND be your age!!

I guess you have to be what you want it to be like - be as friendly and nice as you can and if others don't want to be aimiable - that's their problem. All the great session players and successful musicians I've met are the most nice people you could meet - and I guess that's why they are always working - and some of the financial disasters I meet are the nastiest. Tells you a story doesn't it? If you want to work in this industry and make a living - be nice and friendly with EVERYONE. That next huge opportunity or monster gig can come from the next guy you speak to. Unless you are the one and only brilliant musician at a particular skill, you'll have to be nice. People will put up with a certain amount of nastyness if your brilliant - but as soon as you slip, they'll get their own back and push you down.
 
#811
I am usualy very nice, i think, but im moving now to a completely different town, so i guess, and hope, i get the chance to start over again. i almost got a gig with a african musician, but i havent heard anyhing from him in a while, and each time i call, his son says hes in London, i dunno if i have been rejected, but that was not what he said after first practice :p

ok, if i say, i wish i was my age in the 60's, does that sound better? :p you "older" guys have so much more on us modern players, you learned in a completely different way, you had a chance to do something on the bass guitar since it was such a new instrument, i dont know how, but that cool and great playing vibe from the 60's and 70's somehow got lost from then and until now, especially in rock'n'roll. if i am to judge guitarists from the 60's by Pete, they have some exelent chord knowledge and all that. it makes me wonder, how did you learn stuff back then? you didnt have thoose tabs(hell, i did barely know the notes on my fretboard when i had played for 2 years, all by ears and tab..), wich ruined a bit for modern players, you didnt have books making your mind closed in on that particular style, and thats how it should be done, just look at John if anyone had "wrong" technique it was him, flat fingered approach, his right hand being all over the place..

please tell me if im very wrong, after all 1960 was 27 years before i was born :p

AND you had very nice fenders :p

aparently i like the ":p"
 
#812
If you look back to how we learnt, you can see some significant differences - no TAB, no playback machines like the Tascam, no slow down technologies like Media Player 11, no PC's, no mobiles, no iPods, no cassettes,we didn't even have car radio - just vinyl discs or the domestic radio. Not much on the radio in the mid 60's here in the UK as it was only pirate stations braodcasting much pop and blues - the BBC gave you about 2 hours a week. So we mainly listened to borrowed records and a whole lot of live stuff. You may remember me saying that each venue would normally have two bands - so that meant you played two hours yourself and heard someone else playing for two hours or more (three band gigs) so at the end of a week you've played live yourself for say 8 hours heard someone else for eight hours and been to a gig or tow and listed again to someone new for a few hours - that's like 20+ hours a week of live stuff - who does that nowadays? Secondly we'd crib riffs and chord patterns straight off records, just by listing and working it all out. It really gets your ears working and you get good at spotting standard patterns and riffs very quickly. You don't get this through just cribbing TABs off the web.

Back to John Entwhistle - John had played very well previously in school bands on the tuba/french horn (can't remember which exactly) but he could read the bass stave and was used to fairly complex orchestral bass lines - so he was never going to approach the bass guitar with a root & 5 groove. As there were no role models to follow what John did was to by accident create a style and a way to play unique to him - 2 or 3 finger right hand, pretty flat fingered left, and loads of riffs and runs that he would take up an ocatve during a solo, and also sometimes play double time. No one was playing anything like that in 1964. John was a one off - it's difficult for guys to appreciate how difficult it was for John to get this good when he was actually pioneering a style of play. John was a true pathfinder.
 
#813
Yeah, the last years i have canceled tab(unless im realy, realy in a hurry to learn something) i have the tascam you talk about, but it does it job soley as a CD player. I have heard that many used to slow down the LP's by holding it back to get exactly what was played.

I hate to corect you, cause you had relations to John, but he played French Horn, and its spelled Entwistle.
To be honest, there aint many playing as John today either..
 
#814
Tactician said:
In reply to a couple of comment about the mid 60's. Yes the music community was much much bigger than it is now. Remember no one was able to fill a club with a disco - playing records was something you did just at the beginning of the evening and then in the breaks. Every venue would normally have two bands - so with these Who gigs, we'd go on for an hour at say 7.30 then the Who at 8.30 then us again at 9.30 and then the Who again for an hour at 10.30 for an 11.30 finish (which was when pubs had to close back in those days) If it was a club then the times would be later but the play about the same - an hour on and an hour off. Now there still are the same number of clubs - so imagine how amny bands you need to cover all of these every day they open with two bands - get the picture? Music shops were buzzin' even though the cost of equipment was in real terms about 5x more expensive - like getting a Rickenbacker 330 for $6500. Marshal amps and a 4x12 cab would be about £150 - but when I worked in a government office I got £7 a week. Do the numbers!! We got paid £13 as a band regularly and that might come in 3 or 4 times a week - so you can see I doubled my take home pay by playing full time. Difficult to do nowadays.

The playing scene was huge, with players getting to know each other quite well because of this double booking culture - and you always shared changing rooms or the toilets with the other guys (funny - not very many women involved in those days). It was very much more friendly than I've seen now - bands really helped each other out with equipment, or even lending you a musician if your's went missing. Or the whole band if they were indisposed - which happened twice with the Who - once when their old managment turned up and reclaimed their transport - we all had to go home in our van with all the equipment piled in (see my other post about Pete nearly crashing us) and another time when we had to go on as there was some domestic unpleasantness when one of their relatives turned up for an huge arguement. I guess getting famous in those days was more about ego than the money. There was no marketing, no high level management control, no merchandising, no recod sales going on at gigs. By today's standards it was all very amateurish. But every day was huge fun. And although drugs weren't illegal (yes such a time did exist!) not much of it was about - and we'd have been to scared to try anyway. (I was told once that Pete had managed to get some wierd tobacco called hemp).
Click to expand...

the live music scene nowadays sucks where im at. my dad grew up in the area that we now live at, and he tells me about being able to go to any bar and being able to see a band. now, nobody wants a live band. they are perfectly content with plugging their ipod into a crappy PA and playing the music from that.
 
#815
Thunder_Fingers said:
I am usualy very nice, i think, but im moving now to a completely different town, so i guess, and hope, i get the chance to start over again. i almost got a gig with a african musician, but i havent heard anyhing from him in a while, and each time i call, his son says hes in London, i dunno if i have been rejected, but that was not what he said after first practice :p

ok, if i say, i wish i was my age in the 60's, does that sound better? :p you "older" guys have so much more on us modern players, you learned in a completely different way, you had a chance to do something on the bass guitar since it was such a new instrument, i dont know how, but that cool and great playing vibe from the 60's and 70's somehow got lost from then and until now, especially in rock'n'roll. if i am to judge guitarists from the 60's by Pete, they have some exelent chord knowledge and all that. it makes me wonder, how did you learn stuff back then? you didnt have thoose tabs(hell, i did barely know the notes on my fretboard when i had played for 2 years, all by ears and tab..), wich ruined a bit for modern players, you didnt have books making your mind closed in on that particular style, and thats how it should be done, just look at John if anyone had "wrong" technique it was him, flat fingered approach, his right hand being all over the place..

please tell me if im very wrong, after all 1960 was 27 years before i was born :p

AND you had very nice fenders :p

aparently i like the ":p"
Click to expand...

if tabs were around back then, i would be amazed. guitarists back then would all get together and show each other chords that they learned from lessons or from other guitarists. John had really nothing to learn from. there were no bass players back then who got any attention. and Johns technique came from seeing everyone play with 1 finger like Jamerson, but one day, the Who were playing with a band whos basssist had hurt his index finger, and was alternating between playing with his index and middle fingers. John saw that and decided to play with all of his fingers. later John asked the bassist about that night, and he told John that he had hurt his finger, and so he had to play with his middle finger to be comfortable.
 
#816
Tactician said:
If you look back to how we learnt, you can see some significant differences - no TAB, no playback machines like the Tascam, no slow down technologies like Media Player 11, no PC's, no mobiles, no iPods, no cassettes,we didn't even have car radio - just vinyl discs or the domestic radio. Not much on the radio in the mid 60's here in the UK as it was only pirate stations braodcasting much pop and blues - the BBC gave you about 2 hours a week. So we mainly listened to borrowed records and a whole lot of live stuff. You may remember me saying that each venue would normally have two bands - so that meant you played two hours yourself and heard someone else playing for two hours or more (three band gigs) so at the end of a week you've played live yourself for say 8 hours heard someone else for eight hours and been to a gig or tow and listed again to someone new for a few hours - that's like 20+ hours a week of live stuff - who does that nowadays? Secondly we'd crib riffs and chord patterns straight off records, just by listing and working it all out. It really gets your ears working and you get good at spotting standard patterns and riffs very quickly. You don't get this through just cribbing TABs off the web.

Back to John Entwhistle - John had played very well previously in school bands on the tuba/french horn (can't remember which exactly) but he could read the bass stave and was used to fairly complex orchestral bass lines - so he was never going to approach the bass guitar with a root & 5 groove. As there were no role models to follow what John did was to by accident create a style and a way to play unique to him - 2 or 3 finger right hand, pretty flat fingered left, and loads of riffs and runs that he would take up an ocatve during a solo, and also sometimes play double time. No one was playing anything like that in 1964. John was a one off - it's difficult for guys to appreciate how difficult it was for John to get this good when he was actually pioneering a style of play. John was a true pathfinder.
Click to expand...

were you one of the people who hated the BBC when they shut down Radio Caroline and people like that? John had played Trumpet to start with and then switched to French Horn, and he also was a Classically trained Pianist, so that is probably where he got his Bass Clef training. Pete once said that John switching from Trumpet to Bass in the Detours was easy since all John did was play the bass with the same fingering as the Trumpet. now that, i must say, is really cool.
 
#817
Thunder_Fingers said:
Yeah, the last years i have canceled tab(unless im realy, realy in a hurry to learn something) i have the tascam you talk about, but it does it job soley as a CD player. I have heard that many used to slow down the LP's by holding it back to get exactly what was played.

I hate to corect you, cause you had relations to John, but he played French Horn, and its spelled Entwistle.
To be honest, there aint many playing as John today either..
Click to expand...

i am really into Tabs, but i really do want to learn by ear. i might get both of the Tascam units. the guitar one would be great, i can listen to Bass and Drums with the Mute Guitar Part feature. yes, many an aspiring musician touched his records to slow them down so that he could catch all of the notes. that was also the method of hearing the backwards messages in your favorite Led Zeppelin song. you just turned on your record player and turned the record backwards.
 
#819

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