JS Bach on Bass

[SBassman]

There are many small Bach threads here. I thought it would be fun to try to consolidate dialog into one larger - maybe someday mega - Bach thread. Thus, the thread name doesn't have any reference to a particular Bach piece.

I am a late bloomer. I fell down this rabbit hole very recently. I actually had the Mel Bay / Josquin des Pres JS Bach for Bass a long time ago. Initially, I found it very intimidating, and I didn't get very far. Eventually, I lost the book in the household black hole.

I always had an appreciation for classical music, and an appreciation for the Bach material. Recently, I had two experiences that brought it to another level:
- I started a new job at a college, and the college hosts a symphony in their very nice theatre. I took in the symphony for the first time - and it blew me and my wife away.
- I attended a 1 hour performance by a gifted cello player locally - who performed a program showing Bach's genius as well as influence in modern music.

I am now far down the rabbit hole. I have a list of material I am going to learn, and I started with the G Major Cello Prelude. I Just achieved play through without stopping. [while working out all the hand positions - which I have learned is the Crux of playing this type of material]. Now I have to strengthen it, bring it up to speed, and - memorize it.

I have been doing this for a couple of weeks now, and I am finding these Bach melodies incredible - and literally - haunting. I hear Derivatives of them in my head constantly - and I'm not complaining. I'm finding this later bloomer experience - absolutely amazing.

 

[SBassman]

Resources:

- Various YouTube videos of various quality.

- The Mel Bay JS Bach for Bass book. Good stuff at times, but there are errors.

- Mark Smith's TalkingBass Classical Courses - two Bach pieces. Both are very nicely charted, with a focus on creating a chart playable on a 4 string bass - without having to go uncomfortably far up the neck.
Highly recommended.
Cello Suite In G Major By Bach - Learn Bach On Bass Guitar
Prelude In C Major By Bach - Learn Bach On Bass Guitar

- Bach2Bass website: Bach Cello Suites for Bass Guitar | All Movements.

- Bach Cello Suites for Electric Bass book. I don't have it. Might be good, but in the Amazon reviews, there is mention of the fact that most of the charts are Not in EADG tuning.

- Sheet Music Direct has some Bach bass charts.

 

[younggun]

Don't have to just play Bach's cello pieces on bass, though that's many years worth of study of course. Picking up some of the violin pieces can be a great challenge as well.
A mediocore attempt by me here... not the greatest video quality either, for some reason the sound is slightly off from the video:

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

Inspired by this and another recent thread, I dug out my copy of Josquin des Pres' JS Bach For Bass today. Hadn't really looked at this book in close to ten years, I would guess, but I was amused to realize how much of my rockabilly basslines were derived from the first few bars of Prelude #1 in C Major.

This time around, I am trying to sight-read the notes. Having barely started to learn to sight-read, it was a slow progress today (4 bars in about 20min) but I am not in a rush.

Dug out the 5-string Fender Jazz that was once my main bass. It feels both foreign and familiar at the same time. Not sure which bass I will employ for this particular venture, but my main bass is a fretless 4-string Precision. We'll see which one ends up getting the classical treatment. Perhaps even the EUB

 

[SBassman]

Anyone who has worked on:
Cello Suite #1 In G Major - BWV 1007 - Prelude -

Care to offer up a view on how to position the hands for measure 26?

 

[younggun]

Anyone who has worked on:
Cello Suite #1 In G Major - BWV 1007 - Prelude -

Care to offer up a view on how to position the hands for measure 26?

View attachment 5420879

First, I know you probably don't want to hear this, but using tablature is very limiting, especially for classical pieces like this with very specific melodic content. Here is my reasoning for telling you this. There are multiple places to play the same notes on your fingerboard. Trying to stick with learning a piece of music from tab, and not the actual notes, means you are locking yourself into some very limited positions if you want to hit those notes on the frets listed in the tab. This can often lead to inefficient fingering shifts. The problem with the tab that you provided in your post (and why you are having a problem with this particular measure), is that many of those notes shown I would not play on the string and frets listed in the tab. I would choose to play them on a different string and position on the fretboard, and perhaps even some open strings in order to create efficient hand shifts.


So that we're on the same page, fingers are as follows:

first finger- index
second- middle
third- ring
fourth- pinky
When I say "position" it means the fret number that your first finger is on. For example on a 4 string bass: position 2, means your index finger is on the second fret covering notes F#, B, E, G# on each string respectively...position 5 would mean your index finger is on the fifth fret covering notes A, D, G, C. etc.

Some fingering rules/guidelines to follow for creating efficient position shifts. These CAN be broken, but shouldn't be when we can avoid it in the practice room.
1) One finger per fret. This essentially means that each position will cover 4 notes per string. Extensions one fret away with the index and pinky finger are allowable, but they need to be in context and rare.
2) When shifting positions, shifts should happen primarily with the second finger and third fingers. When shifting up the fretboard (toward the neck) don't use your first finger (index). Conversely when shifting down the fretboard (toward the bridge) don't use your fourth finger (pinky) Using the "outside" fingers (index and pinky) and shifting towards them, causes our fingers to collapse inward toward each other (scrunch up), especially as tempos increase and shifts happen quickly. By moving between positions primarily using fingers 2 and 3, the tendency is to keep your fingers open and covering one fret per finger. Generally when moving down the fretboard shifts happen with the second finger, when moving up, the third finger.

Here's an example of proper shifting. Play a simple, two octave, G major arpeggio (G,B, D, G,B,D) starting in position 2. In order to reach the high D, you are obviously going to have to shift from position 2 up to position 4. If you stayed in position 2 until that last high D, you would be shifting into position 4 using your pinky (shifting down the neck using the pinky is breaking the rule). So instead, the shift happens with the second finger into 4th position on the first D and you finish the arpeggio in that position (Starting in position 2, you would play the low G with your second finger on fret 3 of the E string, then the B with your first finger on the A string, then slide your second finger to D on the A string which moves your entire hand to position 4...you can then reach the rest of the notes). To play it in reverse starting on the high D with your fourth finger, you'd immediately shift to position 2 with your third finger to play the high B then finish the arpeggio down).

3) Avoid skipping strings to shift position. Meaning, don't shift from the E string, skipping over the A, to the D or G string...unless you do the next "rule".

4). Use open strings appropriately, and to "break" the rules. They can be especially helpful if there are large multiple position jumps or string skips needed. Using an open string while moving position allows some "rule breaking" because there is enough time for your fingers to open up on all four frets.

So, with all that in mind, here is my two cents for fingering that particular phrase:

Going by the tab you are using, since some of those notes (the low D for example) are actually transposed an octave up from the original Cello sheet music, I'm going to assume you are playing a 4 string bass. I am also going to assume that you are in position 2 in measure 25, so you'll be starting in position 2 in measure 26. One efficient fingering would be to play the G that is the eighth note of the 26th measure as an open string, that would allow you to shift into position 5 using your second finger on the G string to play the C#.

Here is how I would notate it. The number over the staff indicates a position switch using the numbered finger, the Roman numeral under staff indicates the position you switch to. A zero over a note indicates to play it with the open string.
These are measures 25, 26, and 27. I added 27 to show another efficient shift down to position 4.

 

[Les Fret]

Anyone who has worked on:
Cello Suite #1 In G Major - BWV 1007 - Prelude -

Care to offer up a view on how to position the hands for measure 26?

View attachment 5420879

suppose you want to follow this tab I would do.
1214-2412-13233212

 

[SBassman]

First, I know you probably don't want to hear this, but using tablature is very limiting, especially for classical pieces like this with very specific melodic content. Here is my reasoning for telling you this. There are multiple places to play the same notes on your fingerboard. Trying to stick with learning a piece of music from tab, and not the actual notes, means you are locking yourself into some very limited positions if you want to hit those notes on the frets listed in the tab. This can often lead to inefficient fingering shifts. The problem with the tab that you provided in your post (and why you are having a problem with this particular measure), is that many of those notes shown I would not play on the string and frets listed in the tab. I would choose to play them on a different string and position on the fretboard, and perhaps even some open strings in order to create efficient hand shifts.


So that we're on the same page, fingers are as follows:

first finger- index
second- middle
third- ring
fourth- pinky
When I say "position" it means the fret number that your first finger is on. For example on a 4 string bass: position 2, means your index finger is on the second fret covering notes F#, B, E, G# on each string respectively...position 5 would mean your index finger is on the fifth fret covering notes A, D, G, C. etc.

Some fingering rules/guidelines to follow for creating efficient position shifts. These CAN be broken, but shouldn't be when we can avoid it in the practice room.
1) One finger per fret. This essentially means that each position will cover 4 notes per string. Extensions one fret away with the index and pinky finger are allowable, but they need to be in context and rare.
2) When shifting positions, shifts should happen primarily with the second finger and third fingers. When shifting up the fretboard (toward the neck) don't use your first finger (index). Conversely when shifting down the fretboard (toward the bridge) don't use your fourth finger (pinky) Using the "outside" fingers (index and pinky) and shifting towards them, causes our fingers to collapse inward toward each other (scrunch up), especially as tempos increase and shifts happen quickly. By moving between positions primarily using fingers 2 and 3, the tendency is to keep your fingers open and covering one fret per finger. Generally when moving down the fretboard shifts happen with the second finger, when moving up, the third finger.

Here's an example of proper shifting. Play a simple, two octave, G major arpeggio (G,B, D, G,B,D) starting in position 2. In order to reach the high D, you are obviously going to have to shift from position 2 up to position 4. If you stayed in position 2 until that last high D, you would be shifting into position 4 using your pinky (shifting down the neck using the pinky is breaking the rule). So instead, the shift happens with the second finger into 4th position on the first D and you finish the arpeggio in that position (Starting in position 2, you would play the low G with your second finger on fret 3 of the E string, then the B with your first finger on the A string, then slide your second finger to D on the A string which moves your entire hand to position 4...you can then reach the rest of the notes). To play it in reverse starting on the high D with your fourth finger, you'd immediately shift to position 2 with your third finger to play the high B then finish the arpeggio down).

3) Avoid skipping strings to shift position. Meaning, don't shift from the E string, skipping over the A, to the D or G string...unless you do the next "rule".

4). Use open strings appropriately, and to "break" the rules. They can be especially helpful if there are large multiple position jumps or string skips needed. Using an open string while moving position allows some "rule breaking" because there is enough time for your fingers to open up on all four frets.

So, with all that in mind, here is my two cents for fingering that particular phrase:

Going by the tab you are using, since some of those notes (the low D for example) are actually transposed an octave up from the original Cello sheet music, I'm going to assume you are playing a 4 string bass. I am also going to assume that you are in position 2 in measure 25, so you'll be starting in position 2 in measure 26. One efficient fingering would be to play the G that is the eighth note of the 26th measure as an open string, that would allow you to shift into position 5 using your second finger on the G string to play the C#.

Here is how I would notate it. The number over the staff indicates a position switch using the numbered finger, the Roman numeral under staff indicates the position you switch to. A zero over a note indicates to play it with the open string.
These are measures 25, 26, and 27. I added 27 to show another efficient shift down to position 4.


View attachment 5421481

Thank you so much for taking all that time. Much appreciated.

 

[younggun]

Thank you so much for taking all that time. Much appreciated.

No problem. I had actually been meaning to write all that out for a while, so it was a good opportunity. Those are fingering guidelines taught to me by my long time mentor, original bass teacher, and close friend, Jim Kalson from San Antonio, Tx. It's weird that I took the time to type all that yesterday, as I just found out he passed away unexpectedly last night.
I hope others can get some use out of his fingering system, he was a brilliant bassist and teacher. There probably isn't a single serious bass player in the San Antonio area that wasn't his student at one time or another.
Part of his teaching was to use the Cello etudes by Dotzauer, and pieces by Bach, as daily repetoire on bass guitar for his students. There is a wealth of musical information and practice to be had in them. Figuring out efficient finger shifts on many of those classical pieces is a challenge that reaps huge benefits for anyone's playing, not to mention the musical knowlege you can get through harmonic analyzation of the pieces.
I do have pdf files of some Bach stuff that I have my fingerings written on I'd be happy to share. I generally played Suite #1 in G on a six string bass though, with some of the pieces (like the Prelude) transposed up an octave, so not sure how helpful those pdf's would be for folks playing them on a 4 string. I do have quite a few Dotzauer etudes notated with fingerings for 5 string bass that would work on a 4 with some simple transposition of the notes lower than E (which are fairly few anyway).

 

[younggun]

Inspired by this and another recent thread, I dug out my copy of Josquin des Pres' JS Bach For Bass today. Hadn't really looked at this book in close to ten years, I would guess, but I was amused to realize how much of my rockabilly basslines were derived from the first few bars of Prelude #1 in C Major.

This time around, I am trying to sight-read the notes. Having barely started to learn to sight-read, it was a slow progress today (4 bars in about 20min) but I am not in a rush.

Dug out the 5-string Fender Jazz that was once my main bass. It feels both foreign and familiar at the same time. Not sure which bass I will employ for this particular venture, but my main bass is a fretless 4-string Precision. We'll see which one ends up getting the classical treatment. Perhaps even the EUB

I always prefer having that low B string for the Bach pieces, unless the entire piece is transposed up an octave and played higher up the neck, or transpose to a different key altogether so that the lower notes of the arpeggios stay in order. Some of those arpeggios just sound weird to me if you transpose just one note out of the sequence, (like a low D up an ocatave in the middle or beginning of phrase) so that they can be played on a 4 string.
Playing Bach on a fretless will definitely sharpen up your intonation skills though!

 

[Les Fret]

No problem. I had actually been meaning to write all that out for a while, so it was a good opportunity. Those are fingering guidelines taught to me by my long time mentor, original bass teacher, and close friend, Jim Kalson from San Antonio, Tx. It's weird that I took the time to type all that yesterday, as I just found out he passed away unexpectedly last night.
I hope others can get some use out of his fingering system, he was a brilliant bassist and teacher. There probably isn't a single serious bass player in the San Antonio area that wasn't his student at one time or another.
Part of his teaching was to use the Cello etudes by Dotzauer, and pieces by Bach, as daily repetoire on bass guitar for his students. There is a wealth of musical information and practice to be had in them. Figuring out efficient finger shifts on many of those classical pieces is a challenge that reaps huge benefits for anyone's playing, not to mention the musical knowlege you can get through harmonic analyzation of the pieces.
I do have pdf files of some Bach stuff that I have my fingerings written on I'd be happy to share. I generally played Suite #1 in G on a six string bass though, with some of the pieces (like the Prelude) transposed up an octave, so not sure how helpful those pdf's would be for folks playing them on a 4 string. I do have quite a few Dotzauer etudes notated with fingerings for 5 string bass that would work on a 4 with some simple transposition of the notes lower than E (which are fairly few anyway).

Wish you strengh with your loss! Seemed like a really great teacher. Never heard of the Dotzauer pieces. I would be interested in that. if you could share that that would be great! You can also send me a PM. Thanks!

 

[younggun]

Thanks for the kind words. I will work on putting up some Dotzauer pdfs and/or links soon.

 

[SBassman]

Great growing thread. Thank you all.

 

[younggun]

Here is the sheet music for Bach's Violin Partita No.2 Allemande transposed to Bass Clef. I do have another copy with my finger markings on it as well, but need to double check it for any errors before posting. I'm out of town this weekend so will do it when I get back Monday. It has been about 3 years since I played this one, so it will be good to pull it out and dust it off.

 

[younggun]

My copies of Dotzauer etudes are all at home too, so I will post some of that later this week as well.
Here's some video of me playing through a couple of them though from 3 years ago or so (holy crap, I forgot about my long hair ), that will give you an idea of what they are. I analyzed the harmony of these, charted them, and used iReal to create the backing tracks you hear in the vids. I'm no video or audio engineer, so please bare with the low quality (and the long haired fat guy).

 

[dlmarquez]

Thank you all! I love attempting Bach on my classical guitar and look forward to learning on Bass
To quote Pat metheny “compared to Bach, everyone sucks!”

 

[SBassman]

It's getting very rewarding making some progress with the G Major Prelude piece.
When I first started, I didn't think I could make it to the finish line.
Well, I'm not at the finish line yet, but I am definitely internalizing some of the chart, and it is starting to flow.
Lots of work ahead to bring it up to tempo and play it super clean, but, I now know I can and will cross the finish line.

Again, very rewarding. If there is ever a melody you won't mind being stuck in your head, this is it.
Extremely beautiful.

Kudos to Mark at TalkingBass for his course.

 

[J Wilson]

It's even more fun . . .

. . . with both hands !

 

[younggun]

It's even more fun . . .

. . . with both hands !

Agreed!

 

[SBassman]

It's even more fun . . .

. . . with both hands !

I've even been caught looking at these. I don't think I will succumb, but, I have been sneaking peeks.