Jule Amps Monique part 4

[Fat240]

yes, basically the line out is considered the "master" while the sensitivity knob serves as a "gain"-like function.

So on the De-Monique how can you drive the pre into the power section?

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

So on the De-Monique how can you drive the pre into the power section?

I don't have a De-Monique, but is it not the same circuit? Just crank the sensitivity and crank the line out....?

 

[BurningSkies]

That is what I was assuming, but then I saw that there was a line out on the back of the deMonique. So, I guess you lose the 'master volume' on the mini, and the level controls the signal level hitting the internal amp.

I just want to make sure I'm not in situation of 'gain with no master volume'. That would not be good! I guess if the 'level' turns into the amp master volume, the amp is just internally set at 'full on'.

I'll send Jule an email to make sure. I just want to make sure the operation of the deMonique is, for all practical purposes, identical to the individual components. If not, might change my order to the components.

Thanks!

K

Edit: Put another way, I am assuming (and hoping) that the LEVEL control on the deMonique becomes basically the master volume control that used to be on the mini, with the Monique output level optimized and fixed for the internal mini. I sure hope that is the case!

It should, Ken. There's no 'pre gain' input level, per se. On my rig, the power amp stays static once I've set my main attenuators, then I use the Line Level to adjust my volume. The Sensitivity does involve the front end volume, but not in a linear way as it also controls the input impedance and how much you're hitting the tubes with.

 

[KJung]

It should, Ken. There's no 'pre gain' input level, per se. On my rig, the power amp stays static once I've set my main attenuators, then I use the Line Level to adjust my volume. The Sensitivity does involve the front end volume, but not in a linear way as it also controls the input impedance and how much you're hitting the tubes with.

That is what I'm hoping! Thanks. My concern again is that there is 'one less volume control' in the DeMonique versus the components.

I still want to confirm though. For example, it would make no sense to have the push/pull output gain level on the Monique to impact the send to the internal power amp. As long as the level control is rewired to replace the 'master' on the mini, then all is good. You obviously would not need the level control as it is configured on the stand-alone preamp, since I think that would be used to optimize the signal to different power amps with different input sensitivities, or to dial down the output of the Monique if you are going into the input of a full featured integrated bass amp.

Hope I'm making sense. I'm just a touch concerned about that 'missing master volume' on the deMonique versus the component system

Thanks. I agree that it really couldn't work any other way and make sense, but there is no documentation on the website or in the on-line manual.

 

[KJung]

I don't have a De-Monique, but is it not the same circuit? Just crank the sensitivity and crank the line out....?

This is the big question. Again, it is my understanding on the component system that the sensitivity sets the 'tube gain' (and as such, I assume it impacts the volume), the level control optimizes the signal to the power amp, and then the master volume on the Mini is used as the actual volume control (might have this wrong, but that is how most preamp/power amps work).

Since, looking at the DeMonique pictures, you lose that 'master volume of the power amp' (if that is what it is), then just making sure I can adjust the sensitivity any way I like and still have control of my stage volume, like on the component system.

The other thing that is a bit confusing is that there is still a 'line out' on the DeMonique... so, does the level control still impact that, is there still a 'boost output push pull' on the level that only impacts the external level output without impacting the internal signal to the power amp, or is that disconnected. Whew. Probably thinking about it too much, and might not be understanding the relationship between the level control on the Monique and the 'master' on the mini.

Sorry for the naval gazing, and probably should have done a bit more homework prior to placing the order, but I assume I can change it if the DeMonique is 'limited' versus the component models regarding control of sensitivity and stage volume.

It would be crazy if this was not the case (i.e., that you lose nothing by having the mini installed in the case, but since you definitely lose a knob, just making sure.... I've learned not to assume)

 

[BurningSkies]

That is what I'm hoping! Thanks. My concern again is that there is 'one less volume control' in the DeMonique versus the components.

I still want to confirm though. For example, it would make no sense to have the push/pull output gain level on the Monique to impact the send to the internal power amp. As long as the level control is rewired to replace the 'master' on the mini, then all is good. You obviously would not need the level control as it is configured on the stand-alone preamp, since I think that would be used to optimize the signal to different power amps with different input sensitivities, or to dial down the output of the Monique if you are going into the input of a full featured integrated bass amp.

Hope I'm making sense. I'm just a touch concerned about that 'missing master volume' on the deMonique versus the component system

Thanks. I agree that it really couldn't work any other way and make sense, but there is no documentation on the website or in the on-line manual.

IIRC, James worked with Jule to match the input of the Demeter unit to the output of the Monique, so it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, I believe that James was somewhat involved in some of the tech on the Monique during Jule's development process, IIRC. I haven't really looked at the spec on the integrated units since I'm not really in the market...I know Jule will chime in to clarify though, on the use of the Line level. I would think he'd want to keep the push/pull for your external amp usage, while internally NOT changing the level when feeding the Demeter.

Jule?

 

[Fat240]

It should, Ken. There's no 'pre gain' input level, per se. On my rig, the power amp stays static once I've set my main attenuators, then I use the Line Level to adjust my volume. The Sensitivity does involve the front end volume, but not in a linear way as it also controls the input impedance and how much you're hitting the tubes with.

I do the opposite and set the level out where I want it and control the volume with the attenuators. I like the tube grid and and can get all I need with the line level between 3 and 4 oclock. I can't achieve this with the Sensitivity alone. I need to bring out the upper mids to cut. There really needs to be more videos on this pre besides Jazz and deep bass demo's. I know someone that move this pre because they couldn't get the mid cut they wanted. I cranked the line out and backed the attenuators down and boom there it was. I keep hearing the Monique doesn't get dirty, but she can

 

[BurningSkies]

I do the opposite and set the level out where I want it and control the volume with the attenuators. I like the tube grid and and can get all I need with the line level between 3 and 4 oclock. I can't achieve this with the Sensitivity alone. I need to bring out the upper mids to cut. There really needs to be more videos on this pre besides Jazz and deep bass demo's. I know someone that move this pre because they couldn't get the mid cut they wanted. I cranked the line out and backed the attenuators down and boom there it was. I keep hearing the Monique doesn't get dirty, but she can

I run my line level about 95%, and usually have my mid hitting at about 3 o'clock.

 

[KJung]

IIRC, James worked with Jule to match the input of the Demeter unit to the output of the Monique, so it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, I believe that James was somewhat involved in some of the tech on the Monique during Jule's development process, IIRC. I haven't really looked at the spec on the integrated units since I'm not really in the market...I know Jule will chime in to clarify though, on the use of the Line level. I would think he'd want to keep the push/pull for your external amp usage, while internally NOT changing the level when feeding the Demeter.

Jule?

Yes, you are getting what I'm saying. Yes, that it what I'm hoping and assuming... again, that the 'level' between the preamp and the amp is 'optimized', and hence the 'level' control now becomes basically the master from the mini. That still leaves the issue of then what does the level control do with the line out on the back, or maybe that is just disconnected if you get the 'de' version.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I'm sure Jule has this all optimized, etc. so that basically I have the rough equivalent of an input gain (I know, not quite the same thing) and a master volume (level) for the internal amp.

I sent him an email. If he doesn't respond here and bounced me back on the email, I'll post his response here.

Thanks! I have NO issue switching to the birdcage/mini if for some reason I'm giving up some precision in control by losing that master on the mini. I'm assuming/hoping I am not, since I really like the idea of an 800 watt integrated bass head with the Monique as the front end!

 

[BurningSkies]

Yes, you are getting what I'm saying. Yes, that it what I'm hoping and assuming... again, that the 'level' between the preamp and the amp is 'optimized', and hence the 'level' control now becomes basically the master from the mini. That still leaves the issue of then what does the level control do with the line out on the back, or maybe that is just disconnected if you get the 'de' version.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I'm sure Jule has this all optimized, etc. so that basically I have the rough equivalent of an input gain (I know, not quite the same thing) and a master volume (level) for the internal amp.

Well, the pictures of the back of the de-monique have both a line out and the speaker outs. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a plan already in place. I also can't believe the line level would be the 'old' configuration that doesn't have the push/pull. Although I do have an original one that doesn't have that feature.

 

[KJung]

Well, the pictures of the back of the de-monique have both a line out and the speaker outs. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a plan already in place. I also can't believe the line level would be the 'old' configuration that doesn't have the push/pull. Although I do have an original one that doesn't have that feature.

Yeah, that is what got me worried. When I saw that picture with the 'line out' still on the DeMonique, it raised a warning flag to me regarding, again 'level versus the missing master volume control. (i.e., how is that missing 'mini master volume' dealt with on the internal integrated 'de' model, and how would the single level control optimally control both the internal amp and I guess also be used if you wanted to use the DeMonique as a preamp in the studio or whatever.

Ok, driven the topic into the ground. Hopefully Jule will straighten it out, and hopefully better document what that level control really is on the DeMonique, versus a component system with an amp with its own master volume control.

 

[BurningSkies]

Yeah, that is what got me worried. When I saw that picture with the 'line out' still on the DeMonique, it raised a warning flag to me regarding, again 'level versus the missing master volume control. (i.e., how is that missing 'mini master volume' dealt with on the internal integrated 'de' model.

If there's not something worked out, might be a good place for Jule to work out a mod. Turns out he does that kind of thing.

 

[KJung]

If there's not something worked out, might be a good place for Jule to work out a mod. Turns out he does that kind of thing.

+1 The other thing that got me a touch worried is the rather strange design of the integrated Demeter amp (with the Demeter pre), where the input gain is fixed and you ONLY have a master volume (the input gain can be changed by popping the top and adjusting an internal mini pot, from what I understand). So again, not the typical 'input gain/tube level' sort of gain control, and the typical master volume control of most amps. So these guys seem to think just a touch differently about this than most designers regarding integrating an amp with a preamp in the same box.

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

If there's not something worked out, might be a good place for Jule to work out a mod. Turns out he does that kind of thing.

yeah, Jule is always looking to make everything he does even better. Apparently you CAN teach an old dog new tricks!

I usually keep my sensitivity knob PULLED OUT and around 1 O'clock for a certain color and edge, and my Line Out volume is between 3 O'clock and MAX. Master on my bass is the main volume. Of course there's another output level on the back for the DI out....

As far as the Minnie 800, I've never had to turn the Master past noon....

 

[KJung]

yeah, Jule is always looking to make everything he does even better. Apparently you CAN teach an old dog new tricks!

I usually keep my sensitivity knob PULLED OUT and around 1 O'clock for a certain color and edge, and my Line Out volume is between 3 O'clock and MAX. Master on my bass is the main volume. Of course there's another output level on the back for the DI out....

As far as the Minnie 800, I've never had to turn the Master past noon....

Yeah, since my P is passive, I would in no way use the volume on the bass as a volume control. So, again, lets see what Jule says is the impact of losing the 'mini master' on the integrated unit.

 

[Fat240]

yeah, Jule is always looking to make everything he does even better. Apparently you CAN teach an old dog new tricks!

I usually keep my sensitivity knob PULLED OUT and around 1 O'clock for a certain color and edge, and my Line Out volume is between 3 O'clock and MAX. Master on my bass is the main volume. Of course there's another output level on the back for the DI out....

As far as the Minnie 800, I've never had to turn the Master past noon....

hmm.. I can't max my line out to the power amp without getting too much breakup.

Could be the difference in selection of power amps. If I pull the pad out on the line out slightly past 3 is as far as I can go without it getting nasty.

 

[KJung]

hmm.. I can't max my line out to the power amp without getting too much breakup.

Could be the difference in selection of power amps. If I pull the pad out on the line out slightly past 3 is as far as I can go without it getting nasty.

Yeah, that is the beauty of the level control on the stand-alone unit, since you can set it to get the optimal INPUT signal to the power amp (which will vary greatly by the brand/design of power amp), and then leave it alone, and use the volume control on the power amp as your master volume. Nice that it has that push/pull boost for power amps with very low input sensitivity. And you can dial it WAY down for use into the front end of an integrated amp.

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

Jule recently added a push/pull function to the Line Out as well as the Sensitivity knob, so there's an additional +8db in total, if needed. I guess having the Minnie as a separate power section with an additional master kind of helps in the volume department, too....but by nasty, do you mean good nasty or bad nasty?

 

[pjhandlin]

.......So, I guess you lose the 'master volume' on the mini, and the level controls the signal level hitting the internal amp.

I just want to make sure I'm not in situation of 'gain with no master volume'. That would not be good! I guess if the 'level' turns into the amp master volume, the amp is just internally set at 'full on'.

Hi Ken

I think you have the basic understanding correct as stated in above quote.

When comparing to industry standard gain staging and signal flow for integrated bass amps, the correct conceptualization with the DeMonique is that you don't have the master volume control of the power amp output.

The power amp level is fixed and optimized (full on) to the gain staging of the preamp, eq section and then the line level output. If you read the owners manual on Jule's website, I think you get a better idea of the Monique signal flow.

IIRC, based on my numerous conversations with Jule, the DI level stays the same and is independent when Line Level is turned up or down.

Push pull of the Line Level is different and will globally boost both the output of the Line Level TRS jack and DI output level, but DI is independent of the Line Level otherwise, and has it's own Balanced Level control.

Then there is the push pull of the Sensitivity, and my understanding is that this adds initial gain to the preamp signal.

So the way I think of the signal flow (and I may be wrong):
push pull of the Sensitivity = more initial gain, driving all of the subsequent tube stages
push pull of the Line Out = global output boost to both the TRS Line out level and the Balanced DI out level
Line Out = affects level of TRS Line Out and effectively serves as the overall volume control of the DeMonique.

So yes, I think you would have a broader variance of gain staging with the separate components and the Minnie power amp level control. But how much difference? I initially had the same thoughts and asked Jule the same questions. After gigging the Monique/Minnie for the last six months, I don't really change the Minnie power amp level setting all that much and at this point could easily live with the Line Out only of the DeMonique.

Jule should be by any moment to help out...

 

[KJung]

Hi Ken

I think you have the basic understanding correct as stated in above quote.

When comparing to industry standard gain staging and signal flow for integrated bass amps, the correct conceptualization with the DeMonique is that you don't have the master volume control of the power amp output.

The power amp level is fixed and optimized (full on) to the gain staging of the preamp, eq section and then the line level output. If you read the owners manual on Jule's website, I think you get a better idea of the Monique signal flow.

IIRC, based on my numerous conversations with Jule, the DI level stays the same and is independent when Line Level is turned up or down.

Push pull of the Line Level is different and will globally boost both the output of the Line Level TRS jack and DI output level, but DI is independent of the Line Level otherwise, and has it's own Balanced Level control.

Then there is the push pull of the Sensitivity, and my understanding is that this adds initial gain to the preamp signal.

So the way I think of the signal flow (and I may be wrong):
push pull of the Sensitivity = more initial gain, driving all of the subsequent tube stages
push pull of the Line Out = global output boost to both the TRS Line out level and the Balanced DI out level
Line Out = affects level of TRS Line Out and effectively serves as the overall volume control of the DeMonique.

So yes, I think you would have a broader variance of gain staging with the separate components and the Minnie power amp level control. But how much difference? I initially had the same thoughts and asked Jule the same questions. After gigging the Monique/Minnie for the last six months, I don't really change the Minnie power amp level setting all that much and at this point could easily live with the Line Out only of the DeMonique.

Jule should be by any moment to help out...

Thanks Pat. If that is the situation, I think I'm fine with the deMonique.