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Just finished reading Jack Bruce's autobiography.

#21
Floyd Eye said:
He wasn't critical of his musical ability. He was critical of him taking jams that he (Ginger) and Clapton started, putting words to them and then taking all the royalties. He also claims that a few of the songs Bruce wrote in complete different time signatures and the songs were pretty well crap, until Ginger rearranged them and they became monsters ( White Room for example). Bruce does not dispute this, however, Baker still receives no royalties. To a man, everyone interviewed in that film, including Bruce, Clapton, Winwood, Neil Peart, Lars Ulrich an on and on and on, Places Ginger in a class above everyone else, like Bonham or Moon. Clapton damn near choked on the question. He said something to the effect of " God no, Ginger was nothing like those players. Ginger had the gift, he could see music, arrange music and had perfect time. He was a fully developed musician, not just some drummer". Even his son, whom Ginger has treated like complete crap and hasn't talked to years says he is one of the greatest drummers to ever live.
His beefs with Bruce rarely had anything to do with his musical ability or skill as a player. He once pulled a knife on Jack, I think over Jack playing bass along with one of his drum solos. Ginger is a nutbag for sure. He got like 5 mil for that Cream reunion a few years back. Blew every penny on polo horses, which he was later forced to sell, along with his farm in S. Africa. As of the time this film was recorded he was dead broke.
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Ginger also spent large amounts of money building an animal hospital in South Africa.
 
#22
dougjwray said:
Townshend really holds "Live at Leeds" together, guiding the other guys along. I love hearing Moon brilliantly follow his every gesture. It sounds to me as if the framework of the instrumental sections of "Live at Leeds" were structured by Townshend. Cream, on the other hand, completely improvised the comparable sections of their live material.
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I agree with you completely on this point. I think the biggest difference in these two bands' instrumental sections comes down to the roles played by their respective lead guitarists. Eric was almost exclusively playing single-note lead lines throughout their instrumental sections where Townsend played a mix of lead lines, chords and rythmic figures. Townsend's approach gave the other two more "windows" for their busier playing to shine through. They had a give-and-take going on. Yes, Moon followed where Pete was leading (and so did JAE, if not quite so obviously) but that was how they played together. I don't think what Eric played in the Cream (though perhaps more admirable as free-standing lead guitar) gave Jack and Ginger as much to work with. Call it further out or more jazzy, but it taxes my ears after a certain point. Obviously the mileage of others may vary considerably from this.

I am not near enough of a Who fan to know to what extent those instrumental cues of Pete's were repeated from one performance to the next. But I did have an experience of recreating a similar musical flow in a 3-piece jam session many years ago. I was the guitarist that day and the drummer was a guy I had played with for a few years but hadn't played with for over a year the day we got together with a bass player he had just met. I have a cassette somewhere that preserves a jam we did on Ted Nugent's Stormtroopin. I had just worked it up on guitar and the bass player knew it so we gave it a go. After about 2 minutes it was time to improvise because we'd played the riff and the bridge a couple of times. I basically did a Pete Townsend and crashed out some chords and let the other guys do their thing. We ebbed, we flowed. At times I was playing single-note lead stuff furiously, at times I played double stops or just scratched on muted strings. There were dynamics and textures aplenty. We sort of passed the baton, but it was all improvised. It went on for about 15 minutes. Didn't sound anything like jazz.....but wasn't it jazz in concept? Whatever it was, it was fun to be a part of!
 
#23
Their sons Malcolm Bruce and Kofi Baker have performed together musically.

I used to read lots of musical biographies and whilst I really enjoyed ' to be or not to bop' the biography of Dizzie Gilliespie; I found most reduced my respect of the musician, as most turned out to be arseholes, or not very nice people and I decided to just enjoy the music and not to want to know too much anymore.... I knew Keith Moon was a loon, but he was not really a nice person, and Art Pepper the saxophonist was not a nice fella either, I can't listen to Paul Simon without thinking 'arsehole' - he ripped of other musos and has been doing that since 'Scarborough Fair' - an arrangement and tune he stole from the English folkies, and he ripped off Los Lobos...etc. So for now, I just enjoy the music and rather the music anorak or Rolling Stone Nerd tell me these things and I say 'oh yeah? really?".
 
#25
chuckNC said:
I agree with you completely on this point. I think the biggest difference in these two bands' instrumental sections comes down to the roles played by their respective lead guitarists. Eric was almost exclusively playing single-note lead lines throughout their instrumental sections where Townsend played a mix of lead lines, chords and rythmic figures. Townsend's approach gave the other two more "windows" for their busier playing to shine through. They had a give-and-take going on. Yes, Moon followed where Pete was leading (and so did JAE, if not quite so obviously) but that was how they played together. I don't think what Eric played in the Cream (though perhaps more admirable as free-standing lead guitar) gave Jack and Ginger as much to work with. Call it further out or more jazzy, but it taxes my ears after a certain point. Obviously the mileage of others may vary considerably from this.

I am not near enough of a Who fan to know to what extent those instrumental cues of Pete's were repeated from one performance to the next. But I did have an experience of recreating a similar musical flow in a 3-piece jam session many years ago. I was the guitarist that day and the drummer was a guy I had played with for a few years but hadn't played with for over a year the day we got together with a bass player he had just met. I have a cassette somewhere that preserves a jam we did on Ted Nugent's Stormtroopin. I had just worked it up on guitar and the bass player knew it so we gave it a go. After about 2 minutes it was time to improvise because we'd played the riff and the bridge a couple of times. I basically did a Pete Townsend and crashed out some chords and let the other guys do their thing. We ebbed, we flowed. At times I was playing single-note lead stuff furiously, at times I played double stops or just scratched on muted strings. There were dynamics and textures aplenty. We sort of passed the baton, but it was all improvised. It went on for about 15 minutes. Didn't sound anything like jazz.....but wasn't it jazz in concept? Whatever it was, it was fun to be a part of!
Click to expand...

Also, there's the obvious fact that with the Who you had a situation where the guitarist was the guy who wrote 99% of the songs. You could almost say that they existed as a vehicle for Townshend's songwriting. On the other hand, while Jack wrote most of Cream's original material (with Pete Brown, the lyricist), onstage there were no leaders. I've seen a clip where Clapton mentions that because there was no leader, any time one of them went in any direction, the others would follow. I get the feeling that he secretly considered this a problem... but I'm not sure. ;)
 
#26
One of the most interesting things about Bruce and Baker is how they've straddled two worlds:

A) They are both seriously "legitimate" musicians. There's a fairly recent YouTube video where Baker sits at his kit and methodically goes through every conceivable permutation of every drum rudiment in the universe. He gives the name of each one, and explains it. And, as I've mentioned on TB before, Jack composed a classical string quartet when he was a child, won a cello scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, once subbed for Percy Heath in the Modern Jazz Quartet, sealed his audition for Tony Williams by sight-reading a particularly difficult score, and is simply an all-around master musician.

B) Both became enormous rock stars, in Cream.

I really can't think of anyone else who has done this. Both are innovators and mavericks AND guys who had their faces on day-glo posters in millions of kids' bedrooms in the late '60s AND guys who could probably play cello and percussion, on no notice, with the New York Philharmonic today. I mean, who else has ever fit this description?
 
#28
BawanaRik said:
Ginger also spent large amounts of money building an animal hospital in South Africa.
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Yes he did. In the film, he alluded to the fact that he liked animals better than people because animals ( I think he was speaking of dogs in particular) don't let you down.

I think deep down Ginger is a very kind hearted person, he just is through suffering humans and their endless drama. Years of heroin and LSD use have also left his brain clouded in a permanent fog I think.


Either way, even knowing how horrified they were when Ginger showed up unannounced at the first rehearsal, there is no denying that Ginger was a key component in this song and in this band. I never get tired of watching this video. Best guitar tone ever in my opinion. The tele with the strat neck and the sweet old Marshall stack. Nothing better in the world brothers.


 
#29
Floyd Eye said:
Yes he did. In the film, he alluded to the fact that he liked animals better than people because animals ( I think he was speaking of dogs in particular) don't let you down.

I think deep down Ginger is a very kind hearted person, he just is through suffering humans and their endless drama. Years of heroin and LSD use have also left his brain clouded in a permanent fog I think.


Either way, even knowing how horrified they were when Ginger showed up unannounced at the first rehearsal, there is no denying that Ginger was a key component in this song and in this band. I never get tired of watching this video. Best guitar tone ever in my opinion. The tele with the strat neck and the sweet old Marshall stack. Nothing better in the world brothers.


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Just some thoughts--

I think Ginger and I have a lot in common, regarding people vs. other animals.
In Clapton's autobiography, he states that underneath it all, Ginger is a kind, warm-hearted person with a wry sense of humor.
He also says that when Ginger showed up unannounced at Winwood's cottage, where Winwood and Clapton had been jamming and gradually, tentatively solidifying plans for a new band, Winwood was actually delighted to see Ginger. Clapton was horrified, not only because he knew more about Ginger's temper and heroin addiction, but also because he knew that Blind Faith would immediately become another high profile supergroup like Cream... the very thing he was trying to escape. (And, he did promptly ditch Blind Faith to become a sideman with Blind Faith's opening act, Delaney and Bonnie.)

And yeah, that tone is fantastic. I loved Clapton's tone on their album, too. "Do What You Like" is beautiful-- maybe his Gibson 335 (?) with lots of reverb.
 
#30
dougjwray said:
Also, there's the obvious fact that with the Who you had a situation where the guitarist was the guy who wrote 99% of the songs. You could almost say that they existed as a vehicle for Townshend's songwriting. On the other hand, while Jack wrote most of Cream's original material (with Pete Brown, the lyricist), onstage there were no leaders. I've seen a clip where Clapton mentions that because there was no leader, any time one of them went in any direction, the others would follow. I get the feeling that he secretly considered this a problem... but I'm not sure. ;)
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I read a several of Pete's interviews back when I was young. Someone asked him about writing songs that fit the musical personality of the Who and his reply stuck in my head. "When you commit to a band, you commit to their limitations." He didn't sound angry about it, just more or less resigned to the fact. I think he ended up with a backlog of material he had to record outside of the band because (I'm guessing) either he didn't want to hear what they would do to it or he didn't want to hear them complain about it. The stuff he did give to the group lent itself well to their capabilities. And that was a good thing.

I've thought about the wisdom in that quote of Pete's as I've played in different bands. If you're not able to make music the way you want with the people you have, you either need to change people or change your expectations. Because you won't change them. How much band drama involves someone wishing someone else was more like them?
 
#31
Regarding Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker, I always liked their playing (both of them) but would have enjoyed it a bit more if I didn't know how hard it was for them to be in the same band with each other. That said, I don't believe I've ever read a quote from any of the three members of Cream demeaning another's ability to make music. Seems there was abundant respect in that department.
 
#33
I got to meet Jack Bruce and see him play on the recent Spectrum Road tour with Vernon Reid, Cindy Blackman, and John Medeski. While he really didn't say anything I did get to shake his hand and thank him for all he's done. Just kinda smiled and nodded. Later that night he played his ASS off! From one end of his fretless Warwick to the other, with impeccable intonation, all while singing. No problem AT ALL playing Tony Williams' challenging fusion music. Was glad I went as it may be the only time I'll ever get to see him.
 
#35
Fryer Tuck said:
Floyd Eye said:
Yes he did. In the film, he alluded to the fact that he liked animals better than people because animals ( I think he was speaking of dogs in particular) don't let you down.

I think deep down Ginger is a very kind hearted person, he just is through suffering humans and their endless drama. Years of heroin and LSD use have also left his brain clouded in a permanent fog I think.


Either way, even knowing how horrified they were when Ginger showed up unannounced at the first rehearsal, there is no denying that Ginger was a key component in this song and in this band. I never get tired of watching this video. Best guitar tone ever in my opinion. The tele with the strat neck and the sweet old Marshall stack. Nothing better in the world brothers.


[/QUOTE

Just saw the film. I don't think I like that filmmaker much. Jersey Shore type yelling at a 73 year old man?
Ginger wasn't perfect throughout the film, either. He basically went to Africa for drugs. They never say that in the film..but he was a hardcore addict, he was running out of cash...and Africa was plentiful and cheap.
The best bits are were Ginger talks about other drummers. Lars praises Cream...and Ginger knocks metal.
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Was pretty cool when Ginger slammed him in the face with that steel handled walking stick. lol
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#36
dougjwray said:
One of the most interesting things about Bruce and Baker is how they've straddled two worlds:

A) They are both seriously "legitimate" musicians. There's a fairly recent YouTube video where Baker sits at his kit and methodically goes through every conceivable permutation of every drum rudiment in the universe. He gives the name of each one, and explains it. And, as I've mentioned on TB before, Jack composed a classical string quartet when he was a child, won a cello scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, once subbed for Percy Heath in the Modern Jazz Quartet, sealed his audition for Tony Williams by sight-reading a particularly difficult score, and is simply an all-around master musician.

B) Both became enormous rock stars, in Cream.

I really can't think of anyone else who has done this. Both are innovators and mavericks AND guys who had their faces on day-glo posters in millions of kids' bedrooms in the late '60s AND guys who could probably play cello and percussion, on no notice, with the New York Philharmonic today. I mean, who else has ever fit this description?
Click to expand...


And the irony of the situation is the kid they took under their wing who couldn't do any of this, could barley get through his signature tune when they entered the rock and roll hall of fame, is the one with all the money.
 
#38
Floyd Eye said:
Fryer Tuck said:
Was pretty cool when Ginger slammed him in the face with that steel handled walking stick. lol
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There's an interview on youtube with Ginger and the director of that film, the guy who gets hit in the face.

Baker is a difficult person, and now he's a stubborn old man with a cane and a temper on top of that, but that's just what he is.

The director makes an ass of himself in the interview, shouting at members of the audience who are asking questions he doesn't seem to approve of.

So I pretty much have to laugh when I see that clip of Ginger Baker breaking that douche's nose.
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#40
Beware Mr. Baker is a great and disturbing film on so many levels. I took my family to lunch at the local Hard Rock Cafe years ago and Ginger was there donating a cymbal to the company. Had a nice although almost undecipherable talk with him. He was on his best behavior and was really kind to my kids who knew exactly who he was.

Ginger played later that night with Jack Bruce and I think Blues Saraceno. Still great rhythm section even back then. Glad I got to meet Ginger earlier that day. He came out the back door and ran away from everybody gathered. Jack was nice enough to sign my 1965 Gibson EBO.
 

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