Key Signature Questions

[InhumanResource]

Dorian should NOT have the same key sig as natural minor. Natural minor is Aeolian.

Exactly. I mean, we don’t need special key signatures for modes anyway. They already have key signatures. Major and minor keys are perfectly adequate.

This is venturing into crutch territory like the billions of “practice” ideas about weird patterns and shapes for scales. Just learn the friggin scale up and down the neck. Done. Same with key signatures and sheet music. Play the piece as written and if it happens to center around a mode, fine. All you need to really understand is the key and harmony if you happen to be improvising over it later.

 

[Malcolm35]

Exactly. I mean, we don’t need special key signatures for modes anyway. They already have key signatures. Major and minor keys are perfectly adequate.

In the light of day and after reading all of the posts here is my understanding of modes and key signatures.

A mode is not a key, it is not a scale, it is the mood of a key. This brings us to tonal resolves and modal does not, so should we give a modal vamp a key signature?

If we must brand it with a name D Dorian or D Mixolydian, or D Lydian works for me.

Now if the chord progression has tonal and modal sections then we obtain it's key signature from the tonal section. A modal vamp does not get a "normal" key signature name. Again back to D Dorian or D Lydian.

 

[mambo4]

Then you would have to write an unnecessary accidental in the melody.

I always thought this was the "traditional" convention - whatever leads to the fewest accidentals. Have pity on the reader, present as few surprises as possible, minimize the potential for mistakes.

 

[InhumanResource]

I always thought this was the "traditional" convention - whatever leads to the fewest accidentals. Have pity on the reader, present as few surprises as possible, minimize the potential for mistakes.

It is

 

[CatOnTheBass]

I've never played the Kool and the Gang song, but I have some thoughts about "So What" and "Impressions."

I am kind of conservative when it comes to music notation. The traditional way is to use the D minor key signature (1 flat) and write accidental symbols as necessary. Both "Impressions" and "So What" do contain Bb's, so it's not as though you're "wasting ink" by having Bb in the key signature; you're going to need accidental symbols no matter what. I was taught there are 30 key signatures (15 major key and 15 minor key) and that there's no such thing as a song "in the key of D Dorian" but rather it's just notated as "D minor that happens to have a natural 6th." This is not a new concept. You can find natural 6ths in old folk melodies like "Greensleeves" and in minor key compositions by classical composers like Bach. For hundreds of years it has been "allowed" to use B natural in the key of D minor. Same goes for the natural 7th, which I know is not the question you asked, but yes, you can play C# in the key of D minor, in which case you write an accidental symbol; you don't put C# in the key signature. Minor key tonality is more "malleable" than major key tonality, and according to traditional music theory, Bb, B, C, and C# are all considered "diatonic" to the key of D Minor, written with a key signature of 1 flat. Indeed, Paul Chambers uses plenty of Bb's and C#'s in his walking bass line on "So What," which you can tell from the original recording, was never intended to be "strict modal" D Dorian using only the 7 notes DEFGABCD. I am totally comfortable thinking of "So What" as being "in the key of D Minor."

All that said I don't have any problem writing "Impressions" and "So What" with a key signature of no sharps, no flats. Call that "C Major key signature" or "D Dorian key signature" if you like; it's okay with me. One of the goals of music notation is that it should be easy to read for the musicians on the bandstand. If taking a more modern, modal approach to key signatures makes it easier for the musicians to read, then I totally support that.

 

[InhumanResource]

If we must brand it with a name D Dorian or D Mixolydian, or D Lydian works for me

That's the thing though, we don't need to brand and document everything. I don't need a special symbol in the key to tell me something is rhythm changes or a blues. I look at the key, the changes and say ok, blues in F. Just like I don't need "so what" to have a special key signature to tell me Dorian is happening. Knowing it is in written in key of C but built around ii-7 is plenty of information.

If I'm paying any attention at all to the harmony it will come out as modal. Why bother thinking about what mode it is if you understand the harmony?

 

[InhumanResource]

I've never played the Kool and the Gang song, but I have some thoughts about "So What" and "Impressions."

I am kind of conservative when it comes to music notation. The traditional way is to use the D minor key signature (1 flat) and write accidental symbols as necessary. Both "Impressions" and "So What" do contain Bb's, so it's not as though you're "wasting ink" by having Bb in the key signature; you're going to need accidental symbols no matter what. I was taught there are 30 key signatures (15 major key and 15 minor key) and that there's no such thing as a song "in the key of D Dorian" but rather it's just notated as "D minor that happens to have a natural 6th." This is not a new concept. You can find natural 6ths in old folk melodies like "Greensleeves" and in minor key compositions by classical composers like Bach. For hundreds of years it has been "allowed" to use B natural in the key of D minor. Same goes for the natural 7th, which I know is not the question you asked, but yes, you can play C# in the key of D minor, in which case you write an accidental symbol; you don't put C# in the key signature. Minor key tonality is more "malleable" than major key tonality, and according to traditional music theory, Bb, B, C, and C# are all considered "diatonic" to the key of D Minor, written with a key signature of 1 flat.

All that said I don't have any problem writing "Impressions" and "So What" with a key signature of no sharps, no flats. Call that "C Major key signature" or "D Dorian" key signature if you like; it's okay with me. One of the goals of music notation is that it should be easy to read for the musicians on the bandstand. If taking a more modern, modal approach to key signatures makes it easier for the musicians to read, then I totally support that.

For real. I don't want alien key signatures that force me to adjust to a bunch of accidentals and chord "subs" because I'm "thinking" of the wrong key now.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Absus...Db/Ab...Ab add2.

Don,

While we have you on this side, I have a question.
You've notated Gb/Ab as (ascending Ab (bass) Bb Db Gb) as Absus, but for the next chord you've used the Db/Ab "construction".

 

[Don Kasper]

Don,

While we have you on this side, I have a question.
You've notated Gb/Ab as (ascending Ab (bass) Bb Db Gb) as Absus, but for the next chord you've used the Db/Ab "construction".

Because it is a Db chord with an Ab in the bass. It is not some kind of "Ab...." chord. (Absus can be expressed as Gb/Ab - this is not my preferred way of writing a Sus Chord, but many others do.)
Thanks!

 

[CatOnTheBass]

That's the thing though, we don't need to brand and document everything. I don't need a special symbol in the key to tell me something is rhythm changes or a blues. I look at the key, the changes and say ok, blues in F.

What key signature would you write for blues in F?

I personally prefer F Major key signature (1 flat) for the same reason I prefer D Minor key signature (1 flat) for "So What" and "Impressions." I prefer a key signature that shows me at a glance what the tonal center is. I personally find it misleading to think of C Major as the tonal center of "So What," or of Bb Major as the tonal center of an F Blues.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Because it is a Db chord with an Ab in the bass. It is not some kind of "Ab...." chord. (Absus can be expressed as Gb/Ab - this is not my preferred way of writing a Sus Chord, but many others do.)
Thanks!

Don,

Here is that first measure of Verse 1, just slowed down by 80% and "properly" EQ-ed.

There is a lot of "stuff" going on.
Somehow, after the first SUS sonority in on Beat 1, I hear a clear inverted triad, plus some other "distractive" pitches.
How much all that harmonic movement in that measure could affect your decision to name the chord?

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=16fb578b1e6c31cfa029959bad1376c5

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

Now I know there are a lot of cats here who are much better with theory but I was also told that D Dorian, for example, is not a key signature. Modes are not keys. I get what the OP is saying but I think anybody with a formal education would say D Dorian is in the key of C major (or A minor...) That being said, my education is completely informal.

Fun thread.

 

[Don Kasper]

Don,

Here is that first measure of Verse 1, just slowed down by 80% and "properly" EQ-ed.

There is a lot of "stuff" going on.
Somehow, after the first SUS sonority in on Beat 1, I hear a clear inverted triad, plus some other "distractive" pitches.
How much all that harmonic movement in that measure could affect your decision to name the chord?

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=16fb578b1e6c31cfa029959bad1376c5

Sorry WUTP...I stand by my original analysis for the verse - Absus, Db/Ab, Abadd2.
Thanks.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I stand by my original analysis for the verse

And you have my total support and backup!
Thank you.

But the written key signature was Db (5 flats).

I don't pay too much attention to that "issue", but...
When a "professional" transcriber/s could not even properly notate the Melody notes...

It got my attention the notation of the melody in Measure 1 of Verse 1.

(Almost) all transcribers (paid) notated the pitch of the lyrics, "... on right" as Cb (in the key of Ab).
I hear slightly different notes.
The vocal slides from Eb to Bb - not Cb - for "on", clearly pronounces the the "ri..." on Bb, then moves legato from Bb to Cb on "..ght" and lands on Ab.

Here is that sounclip from the original recording, just slower and EQ-ed.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=9e7932b3f8b15ff694bea28afc1e2aed


Here is an example of the professional notation of that measure in the key of D.

Or in the original key of Ab.

 

[Don Kasper]

And you have my total support and backup!
Thank you.

Thanks!

 

[InhumanResource]

What key signature would you write for blues in F?

I personally prefer F Major key signature (1 flat) for the same reason I prefer D Minor key signature (1 flat) for "So What" and "Impressions." I prefer a key signature that shows me at a glance what the tonal center is. I personally find it misleading to think of C Major as the tonal center of "So What," or of Bb Major as the tonal center of an F Blues.

That’s reasonable and while I agree on the blues key signature I still disagree in the case of something like “so what”. On paper your rationale makes sense but I think it is more compelling to do this for a blues than something like So What.

 

[SteveCS]

And you have my total support and backup!
Thank you.




I don't pay too much attention to that "issue", but...
When a "professional" transcriber/s could not even properly notate the Melody notes...

It got my attention the notation of the melody in Measure 1 of Verse 1.

(Almost) all transcribers (paid) notated the pitch of the lyrics, "... on right" as Cb (in the key of Ab).
I hear slightly different notes.
The vocal slides from Eb to Bb - not Cb - for "on", clearly pronounces the the "ri..." on Bb, then moves legato from Bb to Cb on "..ght" and lands on Ab.

Here is that sounclip from the original recording, just slower and EQ-ed.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=9e7932b3f8b15ff694bea28afc1e2aed


Here is an example of the professional notation of that measure in the key of D.
View attachment 3836632

Or in the original key of Ab.

View attachment 3836633

That whole line is so highly melismatic and stylistically decorated with 'blue' notes I would challenge anyone to annotate the notes to any level of detail beyond those basic essentials - the rest comes down to the skills of the singer to realise the intent. Personally I would state that 'blue' note as the primary pitch for the 'on' syllable as it feels like the idiomatic 'best fit', IMHO. YMMV

...but let's not head too far off piste...

Edit: just to add these are among the things we're expected to just know, when it comes to notation. In the same way as we're expected to when and how to swing the 1/8th notes, even when the writer can't be bothered to write any directions whatsoever... My background being what it is, my default is to play 1/8ths straight.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

I found this bizarre version of the "So What" chart. It's written for Bb transposing instruments (so, written in the key of E minor or E dorian, but sounding a whole step lower in D) but with no key signature, so lots of F# and C# accidentals. To me, this style of notation creates more confusion than it solves, like swallowing a spider to catch a fly.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That whole line is so highly melismatic and stylistically decorated with 'blue' notes I would challenge anyone to annotate the notes to any level of detail beyond those basic essentials - the rest comes down to the skills of the singer to realise the intent. Personally I would state that 'blue' note as the primary pitch for the 'on' syllable as it feels like the idiomatic 'best fit', IMHO. YMMV

...but let's not head too far off piste...

My indoctrinated "pet peevishness" about the melody notation comes from my early years when my friends-singers were carefully learning at the piano each and every breathe of Al Jarreau, Stevie Wonder, etc...
There are no "dead" notes - all of them are "alive and active".
Anyway, the "...on" pitch is - after the chromatic descent from Eb - Bb not Cb.
Then, it clearly starts with Bb, moves to Cb and ends on Ab.

I suspect, that appearance of "Blue" Cb note could have caused (for some transcribers) to use the key signature of Db.

 

[aprod]

I had heard "The Convention" was to ALWAYS notate a minor key as if it was the relative minor of the major key.

There was a big dust up over this years ago which I dont want to resurrect regarding the key signature for So What.

I can see both sides of the argument now. Notating a dorian in the ionian key signature uses less accidental but also could be confusing to someone unfamiliar with song.

The Ab/Db is a new one to me.

Not if you are familiar with music theory. The correct answer is D dorian would use the C major key signature.