Key Signature Questions

[IamGroot]

I am just going to sit back and listen.

Besser Stumm als Dumm.

 

[IamGroot]

Not if you are familiar with music theory. The correct answer is D dorian would use the C major key signature.

There have been very animated discussions about this right here in TB city.

I guess it depends on whose theory book you reference. I dont really care as
I understand how both approaches work. I just want to know if one method has more acceptance.

 

[Les Fret]

A mode is not a key, it is not a scale,

Well a mode is a scale. Just a legit scale like major or minor or chromatic or any other. Think of Indian music where they have more than 80 different scales or modes, they call it ragas. I play a lot of sitar so I played many of these ragas. Each mode/scale has it's own identity and atmosphere. Same is true for the western church modes. That's why a certain piece has a Dorian or Lydian sound. These modes are already used in the middle ages or so.

 

[InhumanResource]

There have been very animated discussions about this right here in TB city.

I guess it depends on whose theory book you reference. I dont really care as
I understand how both approaches work. I just want to know if one method has more acceptance.

I would be interested in seeing a theory book that doesn't put it in C major. The whole point of having a standard is so we don't have multiple ways of doing this.

 

[Les Fret]

Modes aren't scales, they are modes

So What (!) is the difference between a mode or a scale according to you?

To me a mode is a scale. A scale is just a sequence of notes in succession in ascending or descending order. This can be any combination of whole step, half step, or one and a half steps. A pentatonic scale is also a scale. An Ionian mode for example is the same as a major scale. So there is no difference. What you do with these scales might be different. Why is a major scale more scale than dorian?

Yes a mode has a certain feel, atmosphere or identity associated with it but so has a scale.

 

[InhumanResource]

So What (!) is the difference between a mode or a scale according to you?

To me a mode is a scale. A scale is just a sequence of notes in succession in ascending or descending order. This can be any combination of whole step, half step, or one and a half steps. A pentatonic scale is also a scale. An Ionian mode for example is the same as a major scale. So there is no difference. What you do with these scales might be different. Why is a major scale more scale than dorian?

Yes a mode has a certain feel, atmosphere or identity associated with it but so has a scale.

it’s semantics, I actually backed out my response but you saw it pre edit.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

What key signature would you write for blues in F?

I personally prefer F Major key signature (1 flat)

Just don't forget to add,
"F blues tonality"

 

[Whousedtoplay]

it’s semantics, I actually backed out my response but you saw it pre edit.

Maybe, it's semantics, but for some musicians, it's an important thing.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

I would be interested in seeing a theory book that doesn't put it in C major. The whole point of having a standard is so we don't have multiple ways of doing this.

Prior to 20th century modal jazz, the traditional "standard" was to write Dorian compositions in the key signature of the parallel minor key. For example here is "Scarborough Fair" in the key of A Minor. Notice the accidental symbol for the F# in measure 7.

 

[InhumanResource]

Prior to 20th century modal jazz, the traditional "standard" was to write Dorian compositions in the key signature of the parallel minor key. For example here is "Scarborough Fair" in the key of A Minor. Notice the accidental symbol for the F# in measure 7.

View attachment 3836758

That's interesting but it's reasonable to expect standards to change across centuries.

 

[dkelley]

I tend to go with the traditional convention for key signature, but I see exceptions all the time:

A song in D Dorian should take the key signature of D natural minor which is one flat. But I see D Dorian notatated as C Major which is the diatonic major key, esp. if its modal.

Today. I was reading Celebration by Kool and the Gang which is in Ab. The song resolves to Ab7. But the written key signature was Db (5 flats). Which may make sense since the song scale is Ab mixolydian which is Db ionian.

Any thoughts on this?

Yes... many guitarists who work in modes don't actually know standard music theory super well, so it doesn't bother them when they use the wrong mode.

BUT... to be fair....

(EDIT: I worded this badly, so here is my more clear response) -- Modes are simply a Major scale starting on one of the 7 fundamental notes of that scale. There are 7 modes. Nothing more. But to make good music you further add extra accidentals (sharps and flats)... just like with Major and minor keys. They say there are Major and minor keys... but really as long as you understand the simple Major key signatures, all of them, For example B flat Major (which has B flat and E flat in the signature), then you can write for E flat Lydian mode (same thing).

I think anything goes, as long as it's understood by the notation writer and the performer. I typically take something given to me and "fix" it so that when I have to perform it, I don't make stupid reading mistakes. Fixing it often involves a couple little "notes to performer" at top about what the actual desired result is, since trying to write it in full notation is dead hard work for this type of music, and imho maybe not worth the effort.

There are quick standards for writing charts that have lots of excellent short cuts just for this reason... and they're worth learning.

 

[Les Fret]

it’s semantics, I actually backed out my response but you saw it pre edit.

What makes sense is to call something a parent SCALE and to call all derivations of that specific scale modes. So C major is the parent scale and Dorian, Phrygian and so on are the modes of that parent scale. But what about modes that don't have a parent scale? Like exotic modes. Or pentatonic scales? are pentatonic scales modes? To me they are all scales or all modes. They evoke a certain sound. That's most important. For the rest it's just a name. Even the major scale can be considered as a mode because the major scale also has it's own identity and sound. A whole tone scale? Can also be a whole tone mode. So there is no strict difference between modes and scales.

 

[dkelley]

That's interesting but it's reasonable to expect standards to change across centuries.

Is it? That would mean that composers and performers would need to learn different ways to read music depending on the age of the music. This is just not so (I speak having 2 degrees in music)... it doesn't work that way in classical music... and remember that "classical" music (which is a poor and inaccurate name) means basically any notated music written from the very start of known notated music through now and on into the future.

There are, however, new rules added to music theory and notation writing and reading to allow accurate paper-only writing and reading of music that might require new notation techniques - however these rules typically include instructions at the start of the composition for the performers, however. Bartok really pushed the boundaries when I started composing in quarter tones (half semi-tones... half frets.... for violin and such (talk about requiring fretless necks, eh??). There are commonly accepted notation standards in "new music" (which is "classical music" that breaks the notation norms and does things outside of normal music rules).... but they always conform, with extra information, to the good old rules. It doesn't appear like that at first due to the inclusion of new symbols in the music, but that's only because the additional instructions allow you to circumvent tradition for certain parts of the music, while falling back to traditional rules of notation and execution when those new symbols are not included.

The conversation here is only complicated because mostly, on bass guitar or in band situations, the musicians do not know music notation to the full levels that they would have to to understand how to solve every problem of describing how to play your song, along with the fact that it's an awful lot of effort (even if you know it perfectly well) and doesn't always fit into the desired goal in an efficient way, particularly when taking into account that few musicians who aren't highly trained in "classical" music actually know all the theory required to read music perfectly, let alone write it in standard notation.

 

[Les Fret]

Truly, though, modes and classical notation aren't a perfect match if you go all the way with theory and classical notation.

Exactly. Very good point. Notation of key signatures lacks when it comes to modes. When a certain exotic mode has a flat and sharp (say A,Bb, C#,D (and so on) you can't notate that in a fixed key signature. I would advocate using a flat and a sharp in a key signature for pieces like this that are based on that exotic scale. But Most notation programs can't to this. At least I don't know any notation program that can do that. Western theory and notation is not the best for that.

 

[SteveCS]

My indoctrinated "pet peevishness" about the melody notation comes from my early years when my friends-singers were carefully learning at the piano each and every breathe of Al Jarreau, Stevie Wonder, etc...
There are no "dead" notes - all of them are "alive and active".
...

Yes, I understand wanting to get inside every nuance of every note, especially as a young student. But really, standard notation isn't the right tool - that job falls to the ears. There is no way I could capture the intimate details of every note I play in a score. The journey from ppp to fff is not 7 discrete steps over 8 values, but a continuum - likewise even between p and pp or between mf to f. Similarly, the breath between phrases, the depth, rate and centering of pitch shift in vibrato, the time alloted to a grace note, the amount of shortening for staccato or the added time for a tenuto are all things that fall to the good taste and skills of the musician to interpret and realise.

 

[dkelley]

Exactly. Very good point. Notation of key signatures lacks when it comes to modes. When a certain exotic mode has a flat and sharp (say A,Bb, C#,D (and so on) you can't notate that in a fixed key signature. I would advocate using a flat and a sharp in a key signature for pieces like this that are based on that exotic scale. But Most notation programs can't to this. At least I don't know any notation program that can do that. Western theory and notation is not the best for that.

However, to be clear.... there are officially only 7 modes. One mode each to start on a different note of a Major scale. So there aren't keys needed for those modes... if you know how modes work.

I think that many people don't know how modes work.

The Dorian mode simply starts on the 2nd note of a Major scale. So to notate in Dorian E, you'd use a key signature of D Major, which has F# and C#.

The thing is to make it clear, when putting a Key signature but wanting the player to work in a Mode, is that you could (Should?) state that in simple words. Like use key signature of F# and C# (D Major), and write "E Dorian" at the start. I have always seen that a lot in my life of being hired to sight read music in various styles other than classical (latin and jazz and such do this a lot because there's more improvising and being told the mode really helps you to not mess that up... unless you can quickly clean the mode from listening to the chords around you).

And then, yes, there are so many accidentals you can add within the bars of music to alter it further.... but then that same statement is true of anything using just simple Major or Minor keys also, to make good music.

 

[Hectobar]

There is a practical component to music notation. It is to make it easier for people to read/perform it. Key signatures help clean up notation by eliminating accidentals. (never thought about the word accidental- sort of funny; like the note was unintended). Chord symbols are placed above melodies on lead sheets. We haven't even talked rhythm. Music is a non-perfect art created by non-perfect people to create something that is non-perfect and beautiful. Music theory is not perfect and does not explain every situation. Plenty of rules in 4 part chorals and thank god we are past those. By the way, key sig for So What is no sharps no flats and we haven't even talked about the Eb-. The Ab in celebration is AbM.

 

[SteveCS]

... and we haven't even talked about the Eb-. ...

Yes we have...

 

[CatOnTheBass]

That's interesting but it's reasonable to expect standards to change across centuries.

The standard is still the standard, and the Real Book style of modal jazz notation is the exception rather than the rule. Here's a more contemporary example (notice the E Minor key signature and C# accidentals). In my opinion this style of notation is easy to read and unambiguous. If you traveled back in time, you could show this chart to a performer of the classical era, and they would know what to play.

 

[dkelley]

There is a practical component to music notation. It is to make it easier for people to read/perform it. Key signatures help clean up notation by eliminating accidentals. (never thought about the word accidental- sort of funny; like the note was unintended). Chord symbols are placed above melodies on lead sheets. We haven't even talked rhythm. Music is a non-perfect art created by non-perfect people to create something that is non-perfect and beautiful. Music theory is not perfect and does not explain every situation. Plenty of rules in 4 part chorals and thank god we are past those. By the way, key sig for So What is no sharps no flats and we haven't even talked about the Eb-. The Ab in celebration is AbM.

Well yes-ish... but having played classical violin professionally for much of my life in orchestras, quartets, as a soloist, having been a conductor and arranger and composer myself... I can tell you unequivocally that you can notate rhythm EXACTLY if you want to. It's just math... but it does get complicated LoL.

Just the same way you can notate exact notes, perfectly.... even really uncommon notes with weird tunings... but again it does get complicated.

Nearly all music in history was performed by musicians reading notation - even if the composer is performing this piece for the first time and either conducting or as a soloist or whatever in the performance.

I have been lucky enough to premiere several compositions through my career, and not once, in any situation, when discussing things with the composer about how it should be performed, was there a case when the composer said - oh, well, what I REALLY meant was to do it like "this" and demonstrates something with rhythm or notes or tempo or articulation or dymamics other than what they had notated for me.

It, again, requires an advanced level of knowledge to notate it that way, and to read it correctly.

For most of the music we're doing on electric bass - that level of knowledge isn't necessary. And certainly most musicians in jazz, rock, country, anything other than "classical" don't notate music accurately at all. In nearly every jazz chart, you assume that you swing the eighths - which could be notated, but it's way more effort to notate it that way, so you just do it.

That started way way back with the J Strauss II waltzes for orchestra.... they are NOT notated how they "should" be played. He had a very bizarre but incredibly infection rhythm in mind for performing his waltzes... and it's not documented. If you play his music how it's written, it's perfectly fine, but very dull and metronomic. Good conductors/orchestras (ok, maybe only "Great" ones) do that strange but awesome thing when they know they are playing Strauss waltzes where the 2nd beat comes slightly early... that's simplified, but it does get the general gist across.

So it could be written accurately - but it was easier not to, and he just described it in words, and the story is handed down and old recordings prove it and such.

If you didn't know this, you'd play his notation accurately, but not how he intended.

So yea - to sum up... communication, either in perfect notation or with words altering how notation should be played, are paramount.