Key Signature Questions

[CatOnTheBass]

Well said, sir! But there are rules that are followed when notating music.... just that they're ignored often unless composing for classical musicians who read very literally what is on the page, etc.

This is the tiniest semantic quibble, but IMHO there's a distinction between "ignoring the rules" vs. "following a different set of rules." @Whousedtoplay 's example in post #65 follows a different set of rules than the Real Book example @Wasnex posted in #7. But while they are different, neither example is carelessly "ignoring the rules." Both arrangers made an intentional decision how they chose to present the music on the page.

Perhaps "conventions" is a better term than "rules"?

 

[dkelley]

The practical answer is that D Dorian is notated with no sharps or flats, unless your composition teacher and/or ensemble leader are pedants that make you notate it in d minor.

But thinking about it esoterically, impractically and unhelpfully, if the music is truly "modal" there would never be a key signature or any accidentals. There would only be your seven modes, and no keys. Eb Dorian would be notated exactly like D Dorian - on the staff, with d as tonic, no key signature, no accidentals - you would just inform the performer what note they should start on. That's how medieval musical notation worked, in the true era of modal music. In other words, the concept of a key signature is a tonal thing, and not necessarily congruous with modal theory.

No composition teacher being a pedant would teach you wrong, unless they don't know what they're doing. To be pedantic, D Dorian mode is C major scale started on D. So it has no sharps or flats, being pedantic. There is literally no way it could have sharps or flats. Modes have been used in music, looking retroactively via music historian's findings, back more than 2000 years. So it's more like... a well educated music teacher would be teaching you that composing in D minor would require a key signature (of it's relative Major, F, which has a Bb as it's key signature)... but properly composing in D Dorian has zero sharps or flats in the key signature, but can of course have accidentals as much as any key can.

 

[Wasnex]

Both "Impressions" and "So What" do contain Bb's, so it's not as though you're "wasting ink" by having Bb in the key signature; you're going to need accidental symbols no matter what.

I don't believe there are Bbs within the D Dorian section, so I don't believe this not really supports the argument in this instance.

IMHO, the Eb Dorian section falls in with your "swallowing a spider to catch a fly" concept. It would be easier to read if a key change was indicated instead of writing out all the accidentals on the melody.

There are instances where I could follow your logic, but if the melody is pure D Dorian, I see no point in writing Bbs...it simply unnecessary.

So what key signature would you use for B Locrian? To me it would make sense to use C Major as you would not need any accidentals for the written melody. If you used B Minor you would need accidentals for C natural and F natural.

 

[DeepThoughts]

You would either use the "right" key signature. Which of course, in the case of D dorian, is C. Or...you would use no key signature ( and write in ALL accidentals ) which of course is the same ( ie C) Using some other relative key signature to the mode would be confusing. Not really up for debate (imo) Is it?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This Celebration has been Terminated due to lack of Celebration.

"So What"?(!)

P.S. "So What" is, probably, the most talked about, the most discussed, the most (bureaucratically/academically) taught jazz composition in our contemporary musical world.

 

[dkelley]

There are many more modes than 7. If you also think of exotic modes and so on. I don't think of modes in western theory terms. Lydian b7 is also a mode and so on. It doesn't stop with the 7 church modes.

By the way, isn't the Lydian b7 scale often called Dominant Lydian or Lydian Dominant? I think that's what I learned... it's so popular that it got it's own name

Again though, just after rereading our posts... I think I may not have explained clearly something in the world of naming things:

"In music theory, a scale is any set of musical notes ordered by fundamental frequency or pitch. A scale ordered by increasing pitch is an ascending scale, and a scale ordered by decreasing pitch is a descending scale."

That quote I found is right out of a textbook. So you can create any scale you want and call it a scale.

A mode, though is not re-invented... it's one of the oldest music systems in history.

 

[Don Kasper]

P.S. "So What" is, probably, the most talked about, the most discussed, the most (bureaucratically/academically) taught jazz composition in our contemporary musical world.

Yes. Those are my Impressions, as well.
Thanks.

 

[Hambone70]

 

[CatOnTheBass]

I don't believe there are Bbs within the D Dorian section, so I don't believe this not really supports the argument in this instance.

IMHO, the Eb Dorian section falls in with your "swallowing a spider to catch a fly" concept. It would be easier to read if a key change was indicated instead of writing out all the accidentals on the melody.

Paul Chambers plays lots of Bb's in his Dmin walking line. But that aside:

I guess my point is, looking at the piece as a whole, not just the Dmin section, "So What" uses all the notes of the chromatic scale, so no matter what, you're going to have to spread some ink on the page. There are a few different ways it could be written. Your idea has merit, to write a temporary key signature for the change to Eb. If it was a larger excerpt (like a movement in a suite) then I agree I would definitely write a different key signature for the Eb section.

So what key signature would you use for B Locrian? To me it would make sense to use C Major as you would not need any accidentals for the written melody. If you used B Minor you would need accidentals for C natural and F natural.

Can you think of a famous B Locrian song for example?

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I tend to go with the traditional convention for key signature, but I see exceptions all the time:

A song in D Dorian should take the key signature of D natural minor which is one flat. But I see D Dorian notatated as C Major which is the diatonic major key, esp. if its modal.

Today. I was reading Celebration by Kool and the Gang which is in Ab. The song resolves to Ab7. But the written key signature was Db (5 flats). Which may make sense since the song scale is Ab mixolydian which is Db ionian.

Any thoughts on this?

Call me crazy but what I hear is this done is in the key of Ab: the chord changes for the when they are singing Celebrate Good Times Come on starts on the 4 chord; Db/F F# Db/F F# Db/F Ab Verse is Ab; Bridge or pre chorus Dbmaj7 Cm7 Fsus F Bbm Ebsus To The begining.

JMO, but you may be overthinking things.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Locrian song for example?

The Locrian Song



From the album: Locrian Mode

https://play.google.com/music/preview/Trjfymnai5hw7jspsbkhtmvlo3a?play=1

Paul Chambers plays lots of Bb's in his Dmin walking line.

What would we call an approach note on Beat 4 in Walking Bass?

That C# can be called, a "chromatic enhancement".

 

[Wasnex]

What key signature would you write for blues in F?

I personally prefer F Major key signature (1 flat) for the same reason I prefer D Minor key signature (1 flat) for "So What" and "Impressions." I prefer a key signature that shows me at a glance what the tonal center is. I personally find it misleading to think of C Major as the tonal center of "So What," or of Bb Major as the tonal center of an F Blues.

I agree with you on Blues changes; I don't think it's really the same thing though. When you see a I chord in blues, more than 7 notes are suggested, so the key signature primarily tells you where home is and then you have to know the rules of blues to understand the rest. There really is no way around written accidentals with the blues, because it has it's own set of rules regarding both melody and harmony that do not fit within the diatonic confines of a key signature.

With D Dorian 7 diatonic notes are specified. IMHO accidentals should be used to indicate none diatonic tones rather than diatonic tones. With modal music the key signature does not tell you the tonic, it tells you which notes are diatonic. The chord symbol tells you where home is.

I think of modes two ways. The first way is their relative relationship with the Major keys. You can also relate them to the natural minor keys.

The second way is to group them by shape similarity to Major or Minor forms. Lydian and Mixolydian vary from the Major form by one accidental. Dorian and Phrygian vary from natural minor by one accidental. Locrian varies from natural minor by two accidentals.

When I relate modes to key signatures, I use the the first way of thinking about them (how they relate to the Major or Natural Minor key). So to my way of thinking, it makes perfect sense to use the relative Major or Minor key signature for a mode. In a sense Ionian and Aeolian use the same key signature, so why would not Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and Locrian?

In the event someone writes a piece in D minor but wants it to be played D Dorian, they should put a note to say D Dorian. If I were given a lead sheet to sight read, I would not necessarily have time to read through and analyze the melody to determine the song is actually in Dorian mode. If I see a D minor key signature and a D minor chord I will play D Aeolian.

To be honest, if I am not paying close attention I might play D Aeolian even if a D minor chord is indicated over a C Major key signature. But I would consider that an embarrassing mistake if I did, and I would not expect a more competent player to do this.

 

[Wasnex]

Prior to 20th century modal jazz, the traditional "standard" was to write Dorian compositions in the key signature of the parallel minor key. For example here is "Scarborough Fair" in the key of A Minor. Notice the accidental symbol for the F# in measure 7.

View attachment 3836758

The key center is clearly in A minor despite the F# in the melody. This music has modal harmony and is not really comparable to So What or Impressions IMHO.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

The Locrian Song



From the album: Locrian Mode

https://play.google.com/music/preview/Trjfymnai5hw7jspsbkhtmvlo3a?play=1

LOL! I don't have any "scholarly" comments about that composition. But I will say: I loved it, and if he ever stages his song cycle as a musical theater production, I'd be first in line for "Modes: The Musical"

What would we call an approach note on Beat 4 in Walking Bass?

That C# can be called, a "chromatic enhancement".
View attachment 3837106

Good analysis. My point is, there's no way to notate this that completely avoids accidentals. Either you have B natural in the key signature, and write accidentals for the B flats, or you have B flat in the key signature, and write accidentals for the B naturals. I personally think it is a little clearer to read "So What" with no flats or sharps in the key signature, specifically because it gives the change to Eb a certain visual symmetry or purity on the page.

When copyists or engravers are writing out sheet music, it's a balancing act of several variables, and it's not necessarily their #1 priority to "avoid accidentals at all costs." Accidentals are not forbidden fruit, and sometimes it's clearer to write accidentals than not. For example a Cdim7 chord, I personally find it easier to read C, Eb, Gb, Bbb than C, Eb, Gb, A. What about you?

 

[Robscott]

Exactly. I mean, we don’t need special key signatures for modes anyway. They already have key signatures. Major and minor keys are perfectly adequate.

This is venturing into crutch territory like the billions of “practice” ideas about weird patterns and shapes for scales. Just learn the friggin scale up and down the neck. Done. Same with key signatures and sheet music. Play the piece as written and if it happens to center around a mode, fine. All you need to really understand is the key and harmony if you happen to be improvising over it later.

100% agree with you buddy. I have never really been able to understand what the concept of modes can add to the understanding of music, but they sure seem to start a lot of arguments, which doesn't seem all that helpful. I do appreciate that for some people they mean something. But I also see a lot of overthinking/overanalysis when modes come into the picture. Of course, you can describe a piece of music as residing in a mode if you want to, but you don't need to, because key signatures work well enough, so why do it? This is a personal opinion, not meant to upset the modal guys

 

[Wasnex]

However, to be clear.... there are officially only 7 modes. One mode each to start on a different note of a Major scale. So there aren't keys needed for those modes... if you know how modes work.

You can also derive modes for Harmonic Minor and Jazz Melodic Minor.

Harmonic Minor (i) iΔ7
Locrian #6 (ii°) ii-7b5
Ionian #5 (III+) IIIΔ7+5
Dorian #4 (iv) iv-7
Phrygian Dominant (V) V7
Lydian #2 (VI) VIΔ7
Ultralocrian (#vii°) #vii°7

Melodic Minor (i) iΔ7
Dorian b2 (ii) ii-7
Lydian #5 (III+) IIIΔ7+5
Lydian Dominant (IV) IV7
Mixolydian b6 (V) V7
Semilocrian (#vi°) #vi-7b5
Superlocrian (#vii°) #vii-7b5

 

[bassinflorida]

What is with all these flats you speak of? this is a bass forum.

 

[dkelley]

You can also derive modes for Harmonic Minor and Jazz Melodic Minor.

Harmonic Minor (i) iΔ7
Locrian #6 (ii°) ii-7b5
Ionian #5 (III+) IIIΔ7+5
Dorian #4 (iv) iv-7
Phrygian Dominant (V) V7
Lydian #2 (VI) VIΔ7
Ultralocrian (#vii°) #vii°7

Melodic Minor (i) iΔ7
Dorian b2 (ii) ii-7
Lydian #5 (III+) IIIΔ7+5
Lydian Dominant (IV) IV7
Mixolydian b6 (V) V7
Semilocrian (#vi°) #vi-7b5
Superlocrian (#vii°) #vii-7b5

yea, totally. Again, my only point about this is that you can't call them modes on their own, they are new scales derived from other scales, using similar concepts that are used in modes in the mathematical creation of these new scales. But yes, totally, they are awesome and very useful creative tools.

What you list there is an excellent and very awesome collection of scales. I love them, and use them.

I'm not making this up and I didn't invent the rules. I'm just kind of pedantic about terminology in music theory because, well, I lived it and taught it and survived a world of musicians using it. I certainly don't shove my knowledge around when I'm working, but this is a forum to discuss and learn things - all of us; I learn new things all the time here.

Anyhow - if the musicians you're working with call those modes.... well, they are I guess using their own words with their own meanings. Certainly wouldn't be the first time with musicians, eh? As long as you understand them and can talk their language, that's literally all that matters

Cheers

 

[dkelley]

What is with all these flats you speak of? this is a bass forum.

hahhahaa

 

[CatOnTheBass]

Here's another historical example of a Dorian melody: What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor?

You can write it either with Dorian key signature, or with the corresponding Minor key signature and accidental on the natural 6th. Both notation methods are "correct" and easy to read.