Key Signature Questions

[Les Fret]

I think the problem is that we see modes from a western functional harmony perspective. In western classical music from the 18th century on (baroque) or so the major and minor keys were all there is. Since then all theory has been derived from major and minor. Before that music was more modal. From the 20th century on the modes became more popular again in classical music. And in jazz these modes also became popular. But in non western music there were always modes.

Modes and functional harmony are sometimes a tough match since modal music was originality not based on chords. So most western music theory is still based on major and minor because of the functional harmony and therefore modal music and theory can mismatch sometimes.

In the modal days there was not such a thing as modes and scales. There were only modes. But you can also call them scales. Whatever you want.

 

[groooooove]

dorian key signatures would match the major key of a whole step below the dorian tonic. (no sharps/flats for D dorian, then)

also, these things are a little more flexible than some theory teachers make first-semester-students think.

sometimes for ease of typing/writing the key signature may not match the tonic, for modal or other reasons. it's really not that big of a deal. everything in context!

 

[dkelley]

Here's another historical example of a Dorian melody: What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor?

You can write it either with Dorian key signature, or with the corresponding Minor key signature and accidental on the natural 6th. Both notation methods are "correct" and easy to read.

View attachment 3837190 View attachment 3837191

well, you can do the first one.. but... ugh LoL

This song you'd think was written by a folk singer who worked with a simple fife or flute and basic solfege knowledge without getting into sharps and flats and the like.

There probably was no concept of a key signature.

I mean, do you feel there's an advantage to writing it the first way? Maybe, as the discussion has mentioned elsewhere, if you're switching in and out of the mode, and more of the music uses D minor and/or F major, I guess.

But in this case, the song doesn't, so I see no reason other than the transcriber not realizing it was a mode or not knowing how to work in modes (this happens a lot, as you know), and probably just thought "oh, this sounds minor, I guess I'll have to use an accidental for that weird note though!" LoL

But yea, you should transcribe your music into the primary key it's in. It's not uncommon to see key changes every few measures in complex orchestral music... although it can be pretty jarring when sight reading!

 

[CatOnTheBass]

I think the problem is that we see modes from a western perspective. In western classical music from the 18th century on (baroque) or so the major and minor keys were all there is. Since then all theory has been derived from major and minor. Before that music was more modal. From the 20th century on the modes became more popular again in classical music. And in jazz these modes also became popular. But in non western music there were always modes.

Modes and functional harmony are sometimes a tough match since modal music was originality not based on chords. So most western music theory is still based on major and minor because of the functional harmony and therefore modal music and theory can mismatch sometimes.

In the modal days there was not such a thing as modes and scales. There were only modes. But you can also call them scales. Whatever you want.

That's a great observation, and I think a textbook example of what you're talking about is the song "Greensleeves." I've heard two different versions of this classic melody: natural minor (aeolian) vs. dorian. The Christmas carol "What Child Is This?" typically uses the natural minor version of the melody, I believe.

 

[Wasnex]

There are two equally valid ways to think about modes, and you've just touched on one of them, the "relative" method, whereby "D Dorian is a variation of C Major starting on D." From that perspective, I can see why you'd want to use a C Major key signature of no sharps, no flats. That's how the Real Book for example is written, and I don't have a problem with that.

The other way to look at modes is the "parallel" method, whereby "D Dorian is a variation of D Minor with a B natural 6th." If we are relative thinking, then the "parent scale" of D Dorian is C Major. If we are parallel thinking, then the parent scale of D Dorian is D Minor.

I personally prefer the parallel way of thinking because it more closely matches what I'm hearing with my ears. When I listen to a song like "So What" aurally it sounds more closely related to D Minor than to C Major. Also in my opinion, if Paul Chambers was thinking "C Major" in his head, then he wouldn't have played so many Bb's and C#'s in his walking lines.

I am used to a situational approach. Relative for tunes like So What and Impressions because the music is improvised and the key with the chord tells you the mode. It really just two chords so it doesn't go anywhere harmonically. Even better if it says Dorian.

With a song like Scarborough Affair that has lot's of harmonic movement, it's more important to indicate where the tonal center is (A minor is clearly the I chord and the center of the tonality in the example you posted), so the parallel approach makes a lot of sense. However, this poses a problem when the music is improvised and the players are unfamiliar with the music because it tells the players to play wrong notes.

I played along with Simon and Garfunkels version of Scarborough Affair on YouTube. I found sheet music and it is written in E minor although the song is in E Dorian. I don't find this odd, but I think it would be easy to throw in C naturals without knowing any better. The C naturals don't necessarily even sound bad or off, unless you are expecting to hear C#. The real problem would be if some players played C and others played C#.

So we sort of have a dilemma without an eloquent solution. I think it would look a bit weird to write Scarborough Affair in the key related to the mode, because I am used to seeing song like this written in the parallel minor key. But IMHO the best way to avoid confusion would be to use the relative key and and include a note to indicate the song is modal. The lead sheet for So What got it right in my opinion.

 

[Wasnex]

But to be clear, even though I'm writing a key signature of no sharps or flats, I'm still thinking D Minor (not C Major).

If I'm calling the tune at a jam session, I call "So What in D" not "So What in C."

I agree you would call So What in D...the key signature and key are not necessarily the same thing in this instance. C Major and A Minor share a key signature but they are not the same key.

The tonal center is D, the key signature is C (= D Dorian). I would expect someone who knows So What as a head chart to know it's D Dorian.

When I play So What I try to think in Dorian rather than D minor. I won't say I am 100% successful, but that's the goal.

 

[Wasnex]

I feel like you're only looking at one side of the coin. I'm not trying to ram "my" pet personal system down anyone's throat, and I'm not resorting to obscure musical examples. "Scarborough Fair" and "Eleanor Rigby" are famous "standards" that everybody knows. For hundreds of years, composers have loved the sound of the natural 6th in minor keys. It's nothing shocking or mind blowing.

Here's another famous example that shows how common it is to use B natural and C sharp accidentals in the key of D Minor. These notes are still considered "diatonic" to D Minor and don't imply a modulation or change of key. (If anything, they solidify the D Minor tonality.) Contrary to your assertion, classically trained musicians don't freak out when they see B natural accidental symbols in the key of D Minor.

View attachment 3836964

In summary I just want to repeat: We can think about D Dorian in relation to C Major, and we can also think of D Dorian in relation to D Minor. It's kind of like how some people are right-brain thinkers, and other people are left-brain. Both ways of thinking are "correct," which is why there are two different commonly-used methods to notate modal-sounding tunes like "Scarborough Fair" or "So What." Either way, an experienced sight-reading musician can give a fine performance of "So What" whether it is written with C Major or D Minor key signature. I personally am glad to have both of those tools in my skill set, because I've encountered both systems of notation "in the wild."

I have seen several recommendations to default to Dorian mode over minor7 chords when improvising. Definitely not an unexpected sound.

 

[Wasnex]

Can you think of a famous B Locrian song for example?

No, the question was purely academic.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

well, you can do the first one.. but... ugh LoL

This song you'd think was written by a folk singer who worked with a simple fife or flute and basic solfege knowledge without getting into sharps and flats and the like.

There probably was no concept of a key signature.

I mean, do you feel there's an advantage to writing it the first way?

For me, I don't feel that "ugh LoL" feeling at all. The first example is consistent with the notation style of "tonal period" composers like Bach or Mozart, which is my musical "wheelhouse." IMHO the B natural accidental over a D Minor key signature, is a perfectly clear method to visually indicate the Dorian character of the melody.

The "advantage" for me is that it's a more traditional and conservative style of notation, that I think would be familiar to a broader group of potential sight-readers. For example that's the style of notation they use in the hymnals at my church, i.e. Herbert Howell's Mass in the Dorian Mode is written with a G Minor key signature (2 flats) with E natural accidentals as needed.

 

[dkelley]

For me, I don't feel that "ugh LoL" feeling at all. The first example is consistent with the notation style of "tonal period" composers like Bach or Mozart, which is my musical "wheelhouse." IMHO the B natural accidental over a D Minor key signature, is a perfectly clear method to visually indicate the Dorian character of the melody.

The "advantage" for me is that it's a more traditional and conservative style of notation, that I think would be familiar to a broader group of potential sight-readers. For example that's the style of notation they use in the hymnals at my church, i.e. Herbert Howell's Mass in the Dorian Mode is written with a G Minor key signature (2 flats) with E natural accidentals as needed.

Cool. Interesting... I grew up in a world of classical music also. It IS funny how things like parallel fifths, tritones, etc were considered very bad in the days of baroque and early classical music, your wheelhouse.... while for the past century they have been the foundation of many fantastic compositions. What's really interesting to me though is that modes, which are much older than this period of music history we're talking about, would have the music be notated like the version on the right, not the version on the left.

I guess by the days of mozart the notation rules may have gotten more focused on major and minor, away from modes. I'll take your word for it...i'm getting too mentally drained to remember.

Modes preceded many of the compositional rules and restrictions (faux-pas) of the time of the great German composers, Bach, Mozart etc... and haha I just thought of a kind of analogy:

like after the great depression in the USA, party central happened. Also, later, the USA went kind of nuts with joy after the 2nd world war. Then it went all super conservative and controlled and polite in the 50s, with super strong rules and regulations coming into effect post war etc. Then it over reacted in the 60s with super extreme freedom of expression, throwing rules away.

I think we can find similar situations in music history. Maybe? but probably not so up and down over and over again like with general humanity LoL

Anyhow -I'm losing it now, too much thinking! Interesting thread, thanks for this... now I need to chill and go play some dissonant stuff on my fretless ;-)

 

[Les Fret]

Ok I think we can agree that there are two ways of notating D Dorian. Both are equally valid. Whichever you prefer is up to you.

What about this song Hava Nagila Hava?

For me this is a modal melody either in E Spanish mode (phrygian major if you will) or A harmonic minor. First part in E Spanish the second part in A harmonic minor. Now there is one sharp the G#. It would be great if there was a key signature with only a G#. But in western notation there isn't any so we are forced to put it in minor or major. There are many more examples like this where the major and minor system falls short.
Hava nagila

 

[Ekulati]

Wow. The Interwebs. So much misinformation. Gotta love it. I'm making dinner now, but can get back later. Hopefully by then some others who've studied theory and specifically know the historical context in which so-called "key signatures" evolved, will have chimed in.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

Ok I think we can agree that there are two ways of notating D Dorian. Both are equally valid. Whichever you prefer is up to you.

What about this song Hava Nagila Hava?

For me this is a modal melody either in E Spanish mode (phrygian major if you will) or A harmonic minor. First part in E Spanish the second part in A harmonic minor. Now there is one sharp the G#. It would be great if there was a key signature with only a G#. But in western notation there isn't any so we are forced to put it in minor or major. There are many more examples like this where the major and minor system falls short.
Hava nagila

I'm fine with this arranger's choice of A Minor key signature and found it easy enough to read.

In my opinion, it would not be "forbidden" to notate "Hava Nagila" with G# in the key signature. I think that's probably how a composer like Bartok would have written it.

Either method is acceptable to me.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

I'm bored at work, so I dredged up another example.

This hymn is called "What Wonderous Love Is This." I was able to easily find versions using both D Minor and D Dorian key signatures. The D Minor (with B natural accidentals) style of notation is what we use in my church, but the D Dorian style also looks good to me. In my opinion either style is correct.

 

[Les Fret]

I'm fine with this arranger's choice of A Minor key signature and found it easy enough to read.

In my opinion, it would not be "forbidden" to notate "Hava Nagila" with G# in the key signature. I think that's probably how a composer like Bartok would have written it.

Either method is acceptable to me.

Yes but you can not do that with today's notation programs.

 

[Wasnex]

Yes but you can not do that with today's notation programs.

If I am reading this thread correctly, one possible solution in Sibelius is to create a custom clef that includes the desired accidentals.

Sibelius - the leading music composition and notation software

 

[CatOnTheBass]

Yes but you can not do that with today's notation programs.

In MuseScore you can type Shift+K to access the powerful Create Key Signature tool. Just drag and drop the accidentals onto the staff.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This Celebration has been Terminated due to lack of Celebration.
Thanks.

I've decided to get to the bottom of the reason WHY our beautiful balloon called, Celebration got deflated.
Who let the air out of our happy Celebration balloon at TalkBass???
I think I got an answer.
I've re-listened the bass-line, and said, "The bass-line is the nail that deflated our Celebration."
How many bass fills in that 4:18 long song???
ZERO!
How many 3rds, 5ths, or 7ths in that bass-line???
ZERO!
Roots, roots, and nothing but ROOTS!!!
There was ONE, only ONE but very shy slide from the 9th degree (not notated on the bass transcription below.)
Just start, REPEAT AND FADE, as it says on the bottom.
That kind of bass-line could easily deflate any beginner bass player's aspiration.

P.S. I've borrowed the bass transcription from our TB member and a seriously-Pro musician, and an excellent transcriber, ChrisDev from Basslessons.be.

 

[Don Kasper]

I've decided to get to the bottom of the reason WHY our beautiful balloon called, Celebration got deflated.
Who let the air out of our happy Celebration balloon at TalkBass???
I think I got an answer.
I've re-listened the bass-line, and said, "The bass-line is the nail that deflated our Celebration."
How many bass fills in that 4:18 long song???
ZERO!
How many 3rds, 5ths, or 7ths in that bass-line???
ZERO!
Roots, roots, and nothing but ROOTS!!!
There was ONE, only ONE but very shy slide from the 9th degree (not notated on the bass transcription below.)
Just start, REPEAT AND FADE, as it says on the bottom.
That kind of bass-line could easily deflate any beginner bass player's aspiration.

P.S. I've borrowed the bass transcription from our TB member and a seriously-Pro musician, and an excellent transcriber, ChrisDev from Basslessons.be.


View attachment 3837299

Kool.
Thanks.

 

[DeepThoughts]

Here's another historical example of a Dorian melody: What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor?

You can write it either with Dorian key signature, or with the corresponding Minor key signature and accidental on the natural 6th. Both notation methods are "correct" and easy to read.

View attachment 3837190 View attachment 3837191

The fact that this could be written in C without ANY accidentals is what makes F/D- wrong. The simplest way from point A to point B is the correct way when it comes to notation. No accidentals vs 1 accidental makes C the winner. No point in having it flatted in the Key to only make it natural( accidental) the only times the note happens in the music . Accidentals within the notation are for pitches outside of the key. Not sure opinion comes into this as far as "correct" is concerned