Key Signature Questions

[Johnny StingRay]

This reminds me why I never took golf lessons..............eight million things to think about in a few seconds of time!
Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!! My head is exploding!!!!!!!!!
Learn the chord progression of the song, learn basic chord substitutions, and play!!!!
If you must, learn to play the melody so you can create off of it.
If you must, make notes of the original key and how it moves to other keys them back to the original key. Example: The Frim Fram Sauce song moves through three different key centers.
To be honest, I only pay attention to the key signature when I have to read a baseline.
Know the chord progression and you'll be fine.
Just like golf lessons.......INFORMATION OVERLOAD!!!! Don't complicate it by overanalyzing!!! In other words......"Grip it and rip it!!!!"

 

[2F/2F]

The key signature was not Db in this case – it was simply the same signature as Db. It was Ab mix...which uses the same key signature as Db major. Sharing a key signature does not mean sharing a key. People say things like "Ab major is Db mix." They are wrong. They simply contain the same notes. They are not each other just for that reason.

You need to use your ear/brain to figure out what key a song is actually in – not just read key signatures directly as major or minor keys without question. The key signature only tells you what sharps or flats you are most likely to use in the piece – not what the tonal center of the piece is.

I favor modal key signatures, myself. But most pop is notated in major or minor signatures, and accidentals used if the song uses other modes. The idea is that this is less confusing for the reader. I find the opposite to be true. If a song is mixolydian, I want that in the key signature.

 

[Real Soon]

I've seen modes adapted to the traditional functional harmony rules in published scores before. Principally, as is already being cited in the thread, when folk music is "borrowed". That would, at times, absolutely involve writing in D Dorian by using the D Minor key signature and then applying accidentals to all the B-natural occurrences.

It's entirely possible that someone in the publishing house made that decision rather than the composer (due to not understanding the Greek modes), and it's equally possible in many cases that the composer's conservatory education prevented them from making the use of modes outside of the scope of how they were taught to wrangle tonality.


But frankly, we say that D Dorian is played like a C Major scale and just starts/ends on a D. Therefore, it should harness the key signature, which is NOT the arbitrator but only the enabler of tonality, to its purposes.


I'd rather read D Dorian in an all-natural key signature. Of course, modulations and the like allow whatever makes the music easiest to read accurately.

 

[Real Soon]

Also: music intended for secondary/grade/high school ensembles, with an educational bent, are more likely to ignore the mode in favor of artificially inducing it with accidentals, i.e. D Dorian with one flat in the key signature. Maybe makes sense for REALLY young musicians, but the Greek modes are literally the method by which tonality, period, survived the 20th century, so they should be taught as young as possible.

 

[longfinger]

As the music evolves and changes, so should the music theory and notation practice.

Songs can be in Dorian, in Mixolydian or in other modes. This was not common in written music 200 years ago. Now it's more common.

Do I'd use what's clearest and communicates the best for each particular song in the genre an style it is part of.

To tie it up with previous TB threads..
Sweet Home Alabama : D mixolydian , Note in Key sig: F#.
Blues in F : Key of F something.. F Blues. Note in Key Sig: Bb (The V chord uses the E, and most likeable extension in the IV chord would be the E as well. Just the "tonic chord" uses Eb.)

Whatever makes sense for the song.

 

[Don Kasper]

Just the "tonic chord" uses Eb.

Don't forget...So does the D7b9 chord in bar 8 of F Blues.
Thanks.

 

[Les Fret]

In MuseScore you can type Shift+K to access the powerful Create Key Signature tool. Just drag and drop the accidentals onto the staff.

View attachment 3837302

Ok cool. I have Sibelius and didn’t know this. Now I am going to write the strangest key signature ever!

 

[Les Fret]

As the music evolves and changes, so should the music theory and notation practice.

Songs can be in Dorian, in Mixolydian or in other modes. This was not common in written music 200 years ago. Now it's more common.

Do I'd use what's clearest and communicates the best for each particular song in the genre an style it is part of.
.

I favor this as well. In modal music we have to see a mode as it’s own identity not as a derivation of another (mostly major) scale. As said before; it’s a western theoretical functional harmony thought that we must always place a piece of music in either a major or minor key. But this system fails short when it comes to modes. Especially if you use oriental modes.

Even notating a simple Dorian mode piece already evokes such a long 7 page discussion and today’s music book editions all follow a different line. It’s time for a new system.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Addendum.

From here about the modes - the Dorian mode.
An Introduction to Modes - Mixed In Key

"The Dorian mode has a minor feel to it as the first five notes are the exact same order of whole and half steps as a minor scale. However further along the order changes, and the seventh note doesn’t resolve. This is useful as it creates a rather uneasy or edgy feel. This is the mode that you will hear in a lot of Celtic and Irish music. Listen to this example of Daft Punk’s “Get Lucky” to hear this mode in use."
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The article/author states that "Get Lucky" - in F#minor is an example of the nowadays Dorian mode.
From the Internet I have borrowed some sheet music for that song in order to help me understand the above quoted description of the Dorian mode.
In short.
Why did the author decide to present "Get Lucky" as an example of the Dorian Mode?

In addition, here is the F#minor scale.

And here is the F#Dorian mode.

And here is the song.

 

[Les Fret]

Why did the author decide to present "Get Lucky" as an example of the Dorian Mode?

It is B Dorian. It uses all the notes of A major but the 'home chord' is Bm (second degree of A major).
Now if you want to put in functional harmony you can say it is IIm-IV-VIm-V (in A major). Or you can also view it as Im-III-Vm-IV in B Dorian. The first one makes more sense to me. But whatever makes you happy.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It is B Dorian. It uses all the notes of A major but the 'home chord' is Bm (second degree of A major).
Now if you want to put in functional harmony you can say it is IIm-IV-VIm-V (in A major). Or you can also view it as Im-III-Vm-IV in B Dorian. The first one makes more sense to me. But whatever makes you happy.

Thank you for your answer, but...
Some TB members could look at that song and say,
"Hey, it's in F# minor. I don't see any specifically-expressed Dorian mode."

 

[Spin Doctor]

Thank you for your answer, but...
Some TB members could look at that song and say,
"Hey, it's in F# minor. I don't see any specifically-expressed Dorian mode."

This song description you posted confuses me. I don't hear it in F# minor, but I guess if you were playing it in a band, you would end the song on B minor. Don't know what to make of it, but I haven't given it a lot of thought. Feels more like B Dorian to me.

 

[Spin Doctor]

It is B Dorian. It uses all the notes of A major but the 'home chord' is Bm (second degree of A major).
Now if you want to put in functional harmony you can say it is IIm-IV-VIm-V (in A major). Or you can also view it as Im-III-Vm-IV in B Dorian. The first one makes more sense to me. But whatever makes you happy.

This makes sense to me, from my understanding. Especially seeing it as Im-III-Vm-IV in B Dorian. Having said that, I dunno how much you can really say about a Tonal song, being written in a particular mode.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This makes sense to me, from my understanding. Especially seeing it as Im-III-Vm-IV in B Dorian. Having said that, I dunno how much you can really say about a Tonal song, being written in a particular mode.

Listen to the slow beginning of Verse.
Do you feel any resting places with the lyrics, "all ends with beginnings.." and "... the force from the beginning"
with the F#min chord?
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=c8cb9c7c6fddd19e08b83aba0244911c

That E chord sounds more like some dominant chord ending with a deceptive cadence from V to vi.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Listen to the slow beginning of Verse.
Do you feel any resting places with the lyrics, "all ends with beginnings.." and "... the force from the beginning"
with the F#min chord?
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=c8cb9c7c6fddd19e08b83aba0244911c

That E chord sounds more like some dominant chord ending with a deceptive cadence from V to vi.

This is an interesting topic for me because I don't really spend a lot of time analyzing functional harmony. So I will probably get this wrong. Seems a good opportunity for me to learn something. At any rate, concerning the F#minor, I can hear the vocalist resting the phrase he's singing on the F#m7 chord. But harmonically, (in my mind) the overall progression of the song is a stair step type of feeling that uses the Bm7 - D - F#m7 progression to get to that E triad. Metaphorically, that E is like a stair landing. But it's not the final destination. And while the E chord is not written as a dominant chord, it seems to act like one, in that it's holding tension that wants to go back to the B minor7, which keeps the song cycling around.

So while the singer is resting his vocal phrase on the F#m7, harmonically, the song hits its peak there and if I were playing this on a gig, I'd consider actually emphasizing that F# a little more and then relaxing a little on the E. As a bassist, I'd probably create an arc to the progression. I'm not overly concerned how the singer is phrasing his part. I would simply try to get what the song itself is doing. So playing the gig and ending the song, it's probably gonna end on the Bm7. Because it's the Tonic.

I'm personally not hearing a deceptive cadence from V to vi, though. And since its in a minor key, I just hear the IV going to the Im7.

Did you mean the cadence of Vm - IV?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm personally not hearing a deceptive cadence from V to vi

OnMusic Dictionary - Term
Deceptive cadence

"A chord progression where the dominant chord is followed by a chord other than the tonic chord usually the sixth chord or superdominant chord or submediant chord (V-VI), but sometimes something else.
In the tonality of "C" major, a deceptive cadence would be the dominant (V) G major chord (G-B-D) moving to the superdominant (VI) A minor chord (A-C-E).

if I were playing this on a gig, I'd consider actually emphasizing that F# a little more and then relaxing a little on the E.

That's what I was trying to get across.

it's probably gonna end on the Bm7. Because it's the Tonic.

I hear F#min as the Tonic, but the composer has decided to use some compositional device and never resolve the song into the Tonic F#min.

 

[Les Fret]

OnMusic Dictionary - Term
Deceptive cadence

"A chord progression where the dominant chord is followed by a chord other than the tonic chord usually the sixth chord or superdominant chord or submediant chord (V-VI), but sometimes something else.
In the tonality of "C" major, a deceptive cadence would be the dominant (V) G major chord (G-B-D) moving to the superdominant (VI) A minor chord (A-C-E).




That's what I was trying to get across.



I hear F#min as the Tonic, but the composer has decided to use some compositional device and never resolve the song into the Tonic F#min.

I think you are being overly analytic in this case. Daft punk probably never thought of deceptive cadences while writing this song. That’s more a term from classical functional harmony. In pop music these functional harmony rules not always apply. Even the simplest pop songs can use progressions that don’t fall in the the standard classical or jazz harmony progressions.

I hear the Bm as the home chord so for me it is clearly B Dorian. Just like the number one funk Dorian progression. II-V (Bm-E) It’s essentially the same in Daft punk with two chords added.

This topic turned in a nice and interesting theoretical discussion. Chapeau!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I think you are being overly analytic in this case. Daft punk probably never thought of deceptive cadences while writing this song.

Yes, I agree that Daft Punk never thought about that (WHAT???) deceptive cadence.

In pop music these functional harmony rules not always apply.

Daft Punk don't care about any rules of Harmony, but "subconsciously" using those Functional Harmony rules.

I hear the Bm as the home chord so for me it is clearly B Dorian.

Would you call the following song as DORIAN because Verse and Chorus start on ii?
The same "rotational chord progression", just "more educated musicians" allowed the song to pronounce that
Tonic chord.



A few days ago, in the TAB forum, one TB member asked a question about the chord progression of an interesting song, that also does not show the Tonic chord and it uses lots of ii chords.

Don graciously provided the chord progression.
Would you call it (F#min) Dorian?


"F#min9 ...C#min9...Amaj7...Amaj7/B...(repeats these 4 bars)...(repeats these 4 bars)...(repeats these 4 bars)...
Vocal/Verse enters @ 0:30: F#min9...C#min9...Amaj7...Amaj7/B...(repeat these 4 bars 7x for 32 bars total....), then:
@1:31: Amaj7add2/B...Dadd2...Amaj7add2/B...Dadd2...Amaj7add2/B...Dadd2...Aadd2...Aadd2...
@1:46 Intro again: F#min9 ...C#min9...Amaj7...Amaj7/B...(repeats these 4 bars)."

The TONIC chord is E but the songwriter never shows it.
What more, with the F#min (DORIAN) chord, melody clearly shows E - F# - G# notes but the chord is F#min(9).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Someone in this thread has mentioned "Eleanor Rigby".

Here is an interesting analysis of that song.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

"Most musicians I have heard discussing Eleanor Rigby describe it as a “Dorian” tune. As
we’ve seen that can be true for the B section. E-Dorian sounds so authoritative. There is
real gravitas in those words and you instantly think the speaker is very knowledgeable. I
don’t think describing Eleanor Rigby as an E-Dorian melody reaches the level of a good
pick-up line in a bar. But still, declaiming Eleanor Rigby as an E-Dorian melody sounds
impressive."

"I DO feel a dramatic change in the middle of the 2nd measure in the B section when that
A major chord sounds. So, the concept that the entire tune of Eleanor Rigby is in E
minor (that is, E-Aeolian) with a brief modulation into the key of B minor (that is, BAeolian) during the B section is appealing to me. That’s the way I experience the song."

Here is ER sheet music from the Internet.

Here is that track.




P.S. Alan W. Pollack's Notes on "Eleanor Rigby"

" The melody here is in the Dorian mode; that's the one with the minor third but Major sixth and seventh, and it's a relatively uncommon choice for the Beatles, over the long run."

 

[SteveCS]

...


P.S. Alan W. Pollack's Notes on "Eleanor Rigby"

" The melody here is in the Dorian mode; that's the one with the minor third but Major sixth and seventh, and it's a relatively uncommon choice for the Beatles, over the long run."

OK, let's go back to class...