Key Signature Questions

[CatOnTheBass]

I think that many people don't know how modes work.

The Dorian mode simply starts on the 2nd note of a Major scale. So to notate in Dorian E, you'd use a key signature of D Major, which has F# and C#.

There are two equally valid ways to think about modes, and you've just touched on one of them, the "relative" method, whereby "D Dorian is a variation of C Major starting on D." From that perspective, I can see why you'd want to use a C Major key signature of no sharps, no flats. That's how the Real Book for example is written, and I don't have a problem with that.

The other way to look at modes is the "parallel" method, whereby "D Dorian is a variation of D Minor with a B natural 6th." If we are relative thinking, then the "parent scale" of D Dorian is C Major. If we are parallel thinking, then the parent scale of D Dorian is D Minor.

I personally prefer the parallel way of thinking because it more closely matches what I'm hearing with my ears. When I listen to a song like "So What" aurally it sounds more closely related to D Minor than to C Major. Also in my opinion, if Paul Chambers was thinking "C Major" in his head, then he wouldn't have played so many Bb's and C#'s in his walking lines.

 

[dkelley]

To show an example of how far the standard goes - there is such a thing as a double sharp and a double flat. They have special notation (particularly double sharp), and are part of basic theory. They take a note down 2 semitones or up 2 semitones. Why, you ask? Just write the actual note, you claim!

Why? Because there are VERY strict rules of mathematics used when composing music, and to break the rules you first have to understand the rules.... assuming you're composing for classically trained musicians to read. Otherwise they'll laugh you out of the rehearsal hall. If you're in a crazy key that has a lot of sharps in it already, and you want to raise a note to the next higher note, you use a double sharp. Strictly speaking, you can't just write the original note you wanted without breaking some rule somewhere.

And while it sounds ridiculous - having all of those rules means the performers also have all of those rules, and the well trained performers can get as close to flawlessly sight reading anything put in front of them, no matter how complex, and perform it how the composer wants in pretty much every way, without the composer being present and without having ever heard the music before.

Here is an example of music with double sharps and such - it's perfectly readable and when performed (if you have the entire piece, not just this excerpt) then should sound how the composer wanted, exactly, with only minimal room for interpretation by the performer.

This is music for soprano and bass singers with piano accompaniment.

 

[dkelley]

There are two equally valid ways to think about modes, and you've just touched on one of them, the "relative" method, whereby "D Dorian is a variation of C Major starting on D." From that perspective, I can see why you'd want to use a C Major key signature of no sharps, no flats. That's how the Real Book for example is written, and I don't have a problem with that.

The other way to look at modes is the "parallel" method, whereby "D Dorian is a variation of D Minor with a B natural 6th." If we are relative thinking, then the "parent scale" of D Dorian is C Major. If we are parallel thinking, then the parent scale of D Dorian is D Minor.

I personally prefer the parallel way of thinking because it more closely matches what I'm hearing with my ears. When I listen to a song like "So What" aurally it sounds more closely related to D Minor than to C Major. Also in my opinion, if Paul Chambers was thinking "C Major" in his head, then he wouldn't have played so many Bb's and C#'s in his walking lines.

Sure. However the way I described is how it actually was created, where it actually came from, and how it is actually notated officially.

However, officially - your "parallel mode" system is literally wrong, since it's only basing the "minor" word on the fact that there is a minor 3rd. So you have a lot more work ahead of you to add all the accidentals every new line of music to make it work than if you just do the exact, literally "this is where modes came from" rule that I described.

Your parallel system is perfectly fine and follows math too, but doesn't work in standard notation very easily, due to not being based on the actual history.

So I mean, go ahead, do your system, but don't expect a classically trained musician to understand it, and I don't know why you'd do that when there is a system in place that gives you want you want without ANY accidentals added every line of music to fix something that is fundamentally incorrect. Just choose the correct key, not the wrong key, that the mode matches with, and you're done.

Again, I'm simply describing how it's done, officially, historically. How it's executed in our world on bass guitar where we're normally not highly trained and not normally working within standard notation (which does totally require a lot of training), is not the same... and your parallel system is something I see too. It all works, if described clearly.

That's really what matters, right? Communcaiton between notator and performer. Using standard notation, as I described here, requires no special instructions - it just works because it follows the standard. But that requires the performer to be a pretty highly trained musician... and there isn't a need for that in most of what we do on our instrument.

Different worlds - different needs

 

[Malcolm35]

We are only at 61 posts, but, I've lost interest. You'll have fun.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I personally prefer the parallel way of thinking because it more closely matches what I'm hearing with my ears.

You are not alone, but it's not my (amateur) approach.

 

[Les Fret]

However, to be clear.... there are officially only 7 modes. One mode each to start on a different note of a Major scale. So there aren't keys needed for those modes... if you know how modes work.

There are many more modes than 7. If you also think of exotic modes and so on. I don't think of modes in western theory terms. Lydian b7 is also a mode and so on. It doesn't stop with the 7 church modes.

 

[consectaneus]

My understanding of So What: Miles consciously utilized modes to get melodic performances from his band, some thing he felt his music had gotten away from. It is interesting that he equated extended improvisation over a mode with melody, so there is clearly a change in the thought process of the musicians on Kind Of Blue which resulted in the best selling Jazz album. The music became more accessible to the average listener not steeped in the language of bebop.

As far as notation, I am currently enjoying reading from a transcription of a piece which changes key centers every few bars (three different keys). The reason this makes it doable and not a confusing mess (for this basic reader anyway) is that the transcriber chose to indicate every sharp and flat and accidental of every measure. Depending on which particular key a note relates to, the same note may be (for ex.) written as an A# or Bb. This is really great for reading, but I also know I'm being a little spoiled right now since I don't have to think about where these all occur as in a normal piece of music where it's indicated at the beginning and I have to remember all the notes.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

Sure. However the way I described is how it actually was created, where it actually came from, and how it is actually notated officially.

However, officially - your "parallel mode" system is literally wrong, since it's only basing the "minor" word on the fact that there is a minor 3rd. So you have a lot more work ahead of you to add all the accidentals every new line of music to make it work than if you just do the exact, literally "this is where modes came from" rule that I described.

Your parallel system is perfectly fine and follows math too, but doesn't work in standard notation very easily, due to not being based on the actual history.

So I mean, go ahead, do your system, but don't expect a classically trained musician to understand it, and I don't know why you'd do that when there is a system in place that gives you want you want without ANY accidentals added every line of music to fix something that is fundamentally incorrect. Just choose the correct key, not the wrong key, that the mode matches with, and you're done.

Again, I'm simply describing how it's done, officially, historically. How it's executed in our world on bass guitar where we're normally not highly trained and not normally working within standard notation (which does totally require a lot of training), is not the same... and your parallel system is something I see too. It all works, if described clearly.

That's really what matters, right? Communcaiton between notator and performer. Using standard notation, as I described here, requires no special instructions - it just works because it follows the standard. But that requires the performer to be a pretty highly trained musician... and there isn't a need for that in most of what we do on our instrument.

Different worlds - different needs

I feel like you're only looking at one side of the coin. I'm not trying to ram "my" pet personal system down anyone's throat, and I'm not resorting to obscure musical examples. "Scarborough Fair" and "Eleanor Rigby" are famous "standards" that everybody knows. For hundreds of years, composers have loved the sound of the natural 6th in minor keys. It's nothing shocking or mind blowing.

Here's another famous example that shows how common it is to use B natural and C sharp accidentals in the key of D Minor. These notes are still considered "diatonic" to D Minor and don't imply a modulation or change of key. (If anything, they solidify the D Minor tonality.) Contrary to your assertion, classically trained musicians don't freak out when they see B natural accidental symbols in the key of D Minor.



In summary I just want to repeat: We can think about D Dorian in relation to C Major, and we can also think of D Dorian in relation to D Minor. It's kind of like how some people are right-brain thinkers, and other people are left-brain. Both ways of thinking are "correct," which is why there are two different commonly-used methods to notate modal-sounding tunes like "Scarborough Fair" or "So What." Either way, an experienced sight-reading musician can give a fine performance of "So What" whether it is written with C Major or D Minor key signature. I personally am glad to have both of those tools in my skill set, because I've encountered both systems of notation "in the wild."

 

[dkelley]

There are many more modes than 7. If you also think of exotic modes and so on. I don't think of mode in western theory terms. Lydian b7 is also a mode and so on. It doesn't stop with the 7 church modes.

There are 7 modes. They are not "church" modes. They are THE modes. I know exactly what you're talking about, and it drives me nuts how so many people call them modes still after they've been changed to a mode with some modification.

Lydian b7 is not a mode any more, it's an altered mode. But yea I get what you're talking about.

Lydian b7 is awesome, by the way, totally awesome. But it is not a mode, it's a mode with an alteration, a flat 7. There is no mode like that, so it's called a mode (Lydian) with an alteration (b7).

Anyhow - yea, for notation, just choose whatever key has the fewest accidentals needed - makes it all much easier.

 

[Hectobar]

Well yes-ish... but having played classical violin professionally for much of my life in orchestras, quartets, as a soloist, having been a conductor and arranger and composer myself... I can tell you unequivocally that you can notate rhythm EXACTLY if you want to. It's just math... but it does get complicated LoL.

Just the same way you can notate exact notes, perfectly.... even really uncommon notes with weird tunings... but again it does get complicated.

I agree with you. I sent you down a rabbit hole- sorry about that. Rhythmic notation can be very specific. I didn't address rhythm in my original comments. Here we go.

My point was simply there is a practical component to notation. When we notate rhythms, we do so in a manner that makes it easy for the performer to read quickly. EX: a 4/4 bar that has a bunch of syncopated 1/16th notes. If those notes are simply written as individual notes with individual flags, it is more difficult to read than if they were beamed together.

Music theory doesn't dictate music. It's the other way around. And the practical sense of notation is to memorialize or save for later a composers musical ideas. Or, for others to be able to perform the composer's original intent.

I for one am grateful for key signatures that reduce accidentals. I am grateful cleanly written rhythms. I am grateful for neatness. As I get older, I am grateful for larger fonts.

 

[BluesWalker]

D Dorian is the second mode of C major, thus no flats.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

You are not alone, but it's not my (amateur) approach.
View attachment 3836877

I think most of us could read that chart perfectly fine. At least, I don't find the notation confusing or ambiguous in any way.

The place where I think a sight-reader might get tripped up, is when we get to the 2nd ending, we still have B natural on the brain, so we might mess up on the B flat. The copyist could help the performer avoid this mistake by writing a courtesy accidental (b) in parenthesis before the first occurrence of Bb.

Looking at it written both ways, I think I have a slight preference for the Real Book notation, with a key signature of no sharps or flats. Not necessarily because it avoids accidentals (which isn't really a concern of mine) but rather because it makes the chord change to Ebmin more clearly "jump out" of the page at me, visually speaking. If the song stayed in D and never went up to Eb, then I might have a different answer.

The one thing I do really like about seeing it with the D Minor key signature of 1 flat, is that the B natural accidentals are a clear visual "signpost" to the improviser. "Hey! Look at me! B natural, not B flat! Dorian mode!" During his trumpet solo, Miles really "wails" away on that B natural, setting the tone for the soloists who come after. (But none of the soloists, including Miles, stick exclusively to "strict" Dorian. They slip in some tasteful Bb's from time to time.)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Looking at it written both ways, I think I have a slight preference for the Real Book notation, with a key signature of no sharps or flats.

In that case,

Welcome back!

"Hey! Look at me! B natural, not B flat! Dorian mode!"

I can agree with that statement.

 

[dkelley]

I feel like you're only looking at one side of the coin. I'm not trying to ram "my" pet personal system down anyone's throat, and I'm not resorting to obscure musical examples. "Scarborough Fair" and "Eleanor Rigby" are famous "standards" that everybody knows. For hundreds of years, composers have loved the sound of the natural 6th in minor keys. It's nothing shocking or mind blowing.

Here's another famous example that shows how common it is to use B natural and C sharp accidentals in the key of D Minor. These notes are still considered "diatonic" to D Minor and don't imply a modulation or change of key. (If anything, they solidify the D Minor tonality.) Contrary to your assertion, classically trained musicians don't freak out when they see B natural accidental symbols in the key of D Minor.

View attachment 3836964

In summary I just want to repeat: We can think about D Dorian in relation to C Major, and we can also think of D Dorian in relation to D Minor. Both ways of thinking are "correct," which is why there are two different commonly-used methods to notate modal-sounding tunes like "Scarborough Fair" or "So What." It's kind of like how some people are right-brain thinkers, and other people are left-brain. Either way, an experienced sight-reading musician can give a fine performance of "So What" whether it is written with C Major or D Minor key signature. I personally am glad to have both of those tools in my skill set, because I've encountered both systems of notation "in the wild."

Well said, sir! But there are rules that are followed when notating music.... just that they're ignored often unless composing for classical musicians who read very literally what is on the page, etc.

I agree with you. I sent you down a rabbit hole- sorry about that. Rhythmic notation can be very specific. I didn't address rhythm in my original comments. Here we go.

My point was simply there is a practical component to notation. When we notate rhythms, we do so in a manner that makes it easy for the performer to read quickly. EX: a 4/4 bar that has a bunch of syncopated 1/16th notes. If those notes are simply written as individual notes with individual flags, it is more difficult to read than if they were beamed together.

Music theory doesn't dictate music. It's the other way around. And the practical sense of notation is to memorialize or save for later a composers musical ideas. Or, for others to be able to perform the composer's original intent.

I for one am grateful for key signatures that reduce accidentals. I am grateful cleanly written rhythms. I am grateful for neatness. As I get older, I am grateful for larger fonts.

Absolutely, understood, very good points and well said.... although LoL, if ya wanna be picky, there actually are rules of notation that follow all the points you just said.... for the exact reasons you pointed out. We must follow the rules for it to be a universal standard, so notation rules are critical to understand and follow, although there are certainly different standards for different genres of music and depending on the musician you're writing for.

I think we're on exactly the same page LoL

 

[CatOnTheBass]

In that case,

Welcome back!



I can agree with that statement.

But to be clear, even though I'm writing a key signature of no sharps or flats, I'm still thinking D Minor (not C Major).

If I'm calling the tune at a jam session, I call "So What in D" not "So What in C."

 

[IamGroot]

However, to be clear.... there are officially only 7 modes. One mode each to start on a different note of a Major scale. So there aren't keys needed for those modes... if you know how modes work.

I think that many people don't know how modes work.

The Dorian mode simply starts on the 2nd note of a Major scale. So to notate in Dorian E, you'd use a key signature of D Major, which has F# and C#.

The thing is to make it clear, when putting a Key signature but wanting the player to work in a Mode, is that you could (Should?) state that in simple words. Like use key signature of F# and C# (D Major), and write "E Dorian" at the start. I have always seen that a lot in my life of being hired to sight read music in various styles other than classical (latin and jazz and such do this a lot because there's more improvising and being told the mode really helps you to not mess that up... unless you can quickly clean the mode from listening to the chords around you).

And then, yes, there are so many accidentals you can add within the bars of music to alter it further.... but then that same statement is true of anything using just simple Major or Minor keys also, to make good music.

Small clariication: There are several parent scales besides the Major Scale that also have modes like the Melodic Minor. no. of modes = no. of notes in the scale.

 

[IamGroot]

But to be clear, even though I'm writing a key signature of no sharps or flats, I'm still thinking D Minor (not C Major).

If I'm calling the tune at a jam session, I call "So What in D" not "So What in C."

Call it D minor, switching to Ebm.

 

[Don Kasper]

This Celebration has been Terminated due to lack of Celebration.
Thanks.

 

[BarfanyShart]

The practical answer is that D Dorian is notated with no sharps or flats, unless your composition teacher and/or ensemble leader are pedants that make you notate it in d minor.

But thinking about it esoterically, impractically and unhelpfully, if the music is truly "modal" there would never be a key signature or any accidentals. There would only be your seven modes, and no keys. Eb Dorian would be notated exactly like D Dorian - on the staff, with d as tonic, no key signature, no accidentals - you would just inform the performer what note they should start on. That's how medieval musical notation worked, in the true era of modal music. In other words, the concept of a key signature is a tonal thing, and not necessarily congruous with modal theory.

 

[dkelley]

Small clarification: There are several parent scales besides the Major Scale that also have modes like the Melodic Minor. no. of modes = no. of notes in the scale.

Yep. Absolutely. I just didn't get into stuff that isn't part of where modes come from.

I mean, there's natural minor, melodic minor, harmonic minor... then getting weird you have whole tone scale, pentatonic scale, and so on.

Totally correct... sorry if I sounded like I wasn't including them all... I'm just trying to focus my answers on where modes come from, and what they are.

Like there are literally only 7 modes. There are altered modes, just like there are altered chords.... with flat 7, minor third, whatever... and those are no longer modes on their own, just like a Gsus9 is no longer just a major chord or a 9 chord, and can no longer be called as such.

Modes may or may not relate to the various other scale we mentioned, but they do directly relate to the Major scale.