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Keyboard Player Is a Piano Player

#121
You need to ask yourself, Is there a Subconscious motive behind your thinking?
You started off with letting everyone know that your band members collectively "Shoot Down" your suggestions. You go out of town and they bring in a "Keyboard" player that they all seem to like.
You jam with him and notice things that you can pick apart. Things that he is doing wrong.
Are you subconsciously getting back at the other members by judging the Keyboard player because they don't accept any of your suggestions ?
Something to think about...
 
#122
lfmn16 said:
Why? It sounds like the band is at the level that you should be able to find someone that can already play. The guy has no band experience, junk for equipment and didn't bother to learn the songs. Why would you take your time to work with someone like that? He needs to learn to play in a band and that's on him.
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If you read my entire post, my willingness to help is conditional. If a better keyboardist is readily available, then it is unlikely I would waste much time. The OP doesn't have a lot of control of personnel decisions here though, so the OP either needs to make the best of it, or bail.
 
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#123
ZAR14 said:
You need to ask yourself, Is there a Subconscious motive behind your thinking?
You started off with letting everyone know that your band members collectively "Shoot Down" your suggestions. You go out of town and they bring in a "Keyboard" player that they all seem to like.
You jam with him and notice things that you can pick apart. Things that he is doing wrong.
Are you subconsciously getting back at the other members by judging the Keyboard player because they don't accept any of your suggestions ?
Something to think about...
Click to expand...
it is not the case that they do not accept "any of my suggestions". i brought up the where we stand on stage thing because it's the ONLY instance where they don't accept my suggestion, and only to illustrate that I am not in control of the band. we had discussed adding a keyboard player, i am all for that and have no problem with them having jammed with the guy while i was on vacation. one of the other guys in the band made it a point to ask me what i think about the guy after we jammed with him...
 
#124
If you're within 10 ft. or so of the drummer, there's no need to look unless they're counting off by waving their arms. If you're further away, that's what monitors are for. :thumbsup: You only absolutely need line of sight if you're so far away you're always behind if you listen to the drummer and have no monitors, mains, or side fills to stand near (or no IEMs).

EDIT: Are you sure the band isn't setting up for the best look out front? You should be able to play and sound the same with the drummer from anywhere.
 
#125
Wesley R said:
I lost a gig (beautiful gig great money, little equipment to move, close to home) due to a keys players left hand.

We were doing a supper club gig with way, way low volume until 9:00pm when we could crank it up to low volume. During big bad LeRoy Brown the keys guy opens up his volume and does a loud walking bass pattern. The BL just glares at me, and I had already stopped playing. Got chewed out at break time. I tried explaining and the guitarist stuck up for me, yet I ended up sacked.
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I feel your pain. We used to put on a big holiday show with a full concert band, rhythm section, and about 6 vocalist. One year we had an audio tech who was a real gear head who wanted to spread subwoofers all over the stage.

The music director kept yelling at me to turn down my amp. The bass was blasting out of the subs and she had asked for a lot of bass out of the monitor that was placed behind her as well. The monitor sounded horrible as it was on a pre EQ send and I was playing bowed string bass with a piezo pickup that needed a lot of corrective EQ to sound nice. My amp was a small combo about 8" behind me and elevated about 2.5' so I could monitor at a low volume. The volume was already so low that I could not hear the amp.

I tried to explain the problem, but she just assumed I was being insubordinate and kept getting madder and madder. I finally made a big theatrical show of turning my amp off, and of course the bass continued to boom and squawk exactly as it had before. She finally asked the audio tech to dial down the subs, but did nothing about the awful raspy sound of the monitor. She never said anything to me, but I was reassigned from her group after the holidays.
 
#126
buldog5151bass said:
You have to remember, unlike other instruments, keyboard equipment keeps changing, and the older stuff is generally heavier and less useful. Take a good guitar or bass from a prior decade, and at best it is a bargain, if not a vintage collectible. With keyboards you have a doorstop, and an expensive one at that.
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Nothing to remember.
The dude said he had a crappy Yamaha keyboard. I bought one of those from WalMart for my kids. Pretty limited, but you can make it work in many cases. Plus, you can connect a midi to it and get all sorts of updated sounds.

As far as expensive doorstops.
I’ll take someone with a Juno, Oberheim, Nord, or Prophet any day as long as he or she knows how to use it in context.

And those have been around for decades.
 
#127
And I said:
it is not the case that they do not accept "any of my suggestions". i brought up the where we stand on stage thing because it's the ONLY instance where they don't accept my suggestion, and only to illustrate that I am not in control of the band. we had discussed adding a keyboard player, i am all for that and have no problem with them having jammed with the guy while i was on vacation. one of the other guys in the band made it a point to ask me what i think about the guy after we jammed with him...
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Well as you said..."Im the low man on the Totem Pole"
 
#128
buldog5151bass said:
Sit down with the keyboardist over a coffee or beer. Tell him you love his playing, but that in a and context, it's important that no one steps on the sonic space of others. Bring some examples from the songs you are doing. He is probably used to being the lone player. He has to understand what to do (and not do). Remember, the first few times he played with them, there was no bass player.
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^^^This^^^ If he's talented and motivated, he could take the bull by the horns and work out.
 
#130
Wasnex said:
If you read my entire post, my willingness to help is conditional. If a better keyboardist is readily available, then it is unlikely I would waste much time. The OP doesn't have a lot of control of personnel decision here though, so the OP either needs to make the best of it, or bail.
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If someone wants to be a nice guy and train them how to be a keyboard player in a band, that's their choice. I don't run band camp; I expect people to show up knowing their job.

Also, the whole tone of how the band has treated the OP has changed. I don't know what to believe at this point.
 
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#133
lfmn16 said:
If someone wants to be a nice guy and train them how to be a keyboard player in a band, that's their choice. I don't run band camp; I expect people to show up knowing their job.

Also, the whole tone of how the band has treated the OP has changed. I don't know what to believe at this point.
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I totally agree. But there are situations where things can be worked out with a conversation and playing through a few sections of tunes. Ever heard of a sectional? There are also times when you make due with substandard players because no one else is available.

Even skilled musicians have to work things out some time. But I understand in certain types of bands you work things out, and in others you get the boot if you don't fit in.

There is no need to argue this point any further. I don't have a dogmatic position and tend to adjust to the circumstances. In fact, just last night I had to defend my response from the other side of the argument. My response was not all that different to what you have written above.

Have a nice day!
 
#134
lfmn16 said:
If someone wants to be a nice guy and train them how to be a keyboard player in a band, that's their choice. I don't run band camp; I expect people to show up knowing their job.
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Exactly.

I admire people for all the "musician rehabilitation" sentiments, their hearts are in the right place, but experience has shown me that, in a more practical sense, it's often time consuming, frustrating, and usually fruitless. Old habits die hard, can't teach an old dog, etc. More often than not, animosity creeps in. Efforts to rehabilitate musicians is a losing proposition.

If I'm feeling hopeful and generous I go with the "I'll give you one chance to hear me" mentality, where I express my legitimate concerns in a professional, polite, and diplomatic manner. If it doesn't stick, I'm done. And it usually doesn't stick.
 
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#135
electracoyote said:
Exactly.

I admire people for all the "musician rehabilitation" sentiments, their hearts are in the right place, but experience has shown me that, in a more practical sense, it's often time consuming, frustrating, and usually fruitless. Old habits die hard, can't teach an old dog, etc. More often than not, animosity creeps in. Efforts to rehabilitate musicians are a losing proposition.

If I'm feeling hopeful I go with the "I'll give you one chance to hear me" mentality, where I express my legitimate concerns in a professional, polite, and diplomatic manner. If it doesn't stick, I'm done. And it usually doesn't stick.
Click to expand...

It typically takes years to learn to play an instrument well. Basically there are a bunch of separate processes that you have to learn, automate, and integrate so you don't have to think about everything that is going on.

People assume that it is easy for the keyboardist to avoid doing something that is dysfunctional in a full band context...but remember the he has spent years making his playing automatic, so that the left hand goes about it's business without too much conscious effort. Notice what @And I wrote in post #104.
And I said:
i did tell him "just don't play with the left hand" and he tried for a few measures but it messed him up.
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In order to fit in, evidence suggests the keyboard player will probably need to unlearn dysfunctional habits and replace them with new functional habits. This will require new knowledge, new skills, new mental processes, and the learning process is not likely to be simple or fast.

That doesn't mean you don't have a conversation to explore where the keyboardist is on the qualification continuum. Maybe he is more skilled than the jam revealed, maybe he's not.

So I am pretty much on the same page as you. It's not personal, it's professional. Either he can play and fit in or he can't. If he's not close, then it's on him to develop the necessary skills, because I am not qualified or interested in teaching piano/keyboards.

The worst part about trying to teach an old dog a new trick is the lack of motivation to learn. IMHO, an inexperienced musician with natural talent who is excited about music, but lacks skills, is often far more trainable and more likely to do whatever is necessary to cover the part than an experienced player with the wrong skillset.
 
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#139
buldog5151bass said:
Sit down with the keyboardist over a coffee or beer. Tell him you love his playing, but that in a and context, it's important that no one steps on the sonic space of others. Bring some examples from the songs you are doing. He is probably used to being the lone player. He has to understand what to do (and not do). Remember, the first few times he played with them, there was no bass player.
Click to expand...
Also tell him that if he doesn't want his left hand cut off to leave it in his pocket.
 
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