Keyboard Player Is a Piano Player

[two fingers]

I play in a mostly covers classic rock (with some soul / groove) group. Currently it's 2 guitars, bass (we all sing), and drums. We are all very experienced (thousands of shows played each) and pretty good at what we do individually, and as a band. We don't really have an official band leader, but I'm certainly the low man on the totem pole as I've found out when trying to negotiate our stage setup so I can stand next to the drummer and having been shot down categorically with no good reason given... The other 3 guys have known / played with each other for a long time and I've "only" known the guitarist for 7 years... That having been said it's a good group of guys, we communicate well for the most part, and we're friends.

So I go away for a few weeks, and I'm told there is a keyboard player coming on board, which we've talked about before. Great! I'm psyched. They jammed with him a couple of times while I was away. We schedule a rehearsal when I'm back. I meet the keyboard player, he's cool, nice guy. He has performance experience, but he's never played in a band before. He's a piano player, not a keyboard player. He's doing block chords with two octaves on the left hand the whole time. We all have pro gear and he's got a cheap yamaha keyboard which has no decent rhodes, wurly, or hammond sounds, he hasn't learned any of the actual keyboard parts for the covers.

So after the jam, one of the guys asks me what I think, and I more or less tell him--nice guy, has some talent, but is not a "keyboard player" and needs a lot of work before he would be gig ready with us. But at the same time I conceded that there are no experienced players with nord electros knocking on our door. He more or less agreed. I text one of the other guys (who was telling this "keyboard" player how good he sounded after the rehearsal) and let him know my issues, that I don't think he's a good fit. No response.

The goal for this band is to play a few local / regional gigs a month (for money), and to sound professional. I play in another band already so my "play music" fix is covered... So, what would you do in this situation?

I am in the same situation with regard to a piano player. (We all formed the group together so remove the band politics from my situation.)

You just have two choices.

1) You have a conversation with the keys guy. You ask him if throwing some organ and synth stuff in is even an option. You explain to him that his left hand will be cut off if he can't learn how to not play bass with it. (Laugh after you say that so everyone think you're kidding.... even though you're not.) If he agrees to try to play some organ/synth and stay out of your frequency range, proceed accordingly. If not....

2) You just became a piano band. Stick to Skynard, Michael McDonald era Doobies (Takin It To the Streets is a JAM!), and stuff like that.

But you HAVE to explain to the band that there will be a sonic CLASH if he can't reel in his left hand. If the piano is banging away on a root C, and you start playing passing tones in the same octave working up to the IV it will sound HORRENDOUS out front.

There's a huge difference between an A9 chord and an Asus2 that occurs because he's playing the low B in the same octave you're playing the low A. YUCK! In middle and high octaves, a sus2 can sound great and add tension. If the A and B are both in a lower octave, it gets ugly. And there's no way to discuss every instance where that stuff can happen.


All are bound by the laws of physics. Sound waves are simply physics in action.

We are morphing from 2 to 1. What I mean by that is piano is our guy's forte'. But he's trying to become a synth/organ guy. We started with primarily piano songs and have been able to pick up about 10 or 12 good organ and synth songs. But his ego is in check. And we're all realistic with our expectations as well as appreciative of his efforts to step outside his comfort zone. It's cing together well.

Best of luck with your situation.

 

[And I]

while i agree he doesnt sound like he's cutting it for what you want, to me you have a fairly odd concept of what a piano player is and how you differentiate between a keyboardist and pianist.

he's played mostly folks / light rock with an acoustic guitar and/or piano, him solo or maybe one other person. a piano player covers the whole sonic spectrum. a keyboard player in a classic rock context--unless the song is a "piano song" a la elton john or something, plays hammond, rhodes, wurly, clav, or sometimes a synth / string patch, doesn't normally play in the low octaves unless doubling the bassline, and plays a "part", doesn't simply pick a rhythm and hammer away at the chord structure of the songs with both hands.

 

[And I]

i only jammed with him once. he does seem open to learning, and he did try organ patches. only one of them sounded like an organ. the electric piano was a DX-7 (barf). the thing is i am not open to teaching, really just don't have the inclination to do that in this context. and at least one other guy in the band was telling him how great he sounded after the jam, how much he was "inside of the songs". in my opinion this was not at all true.

 

[And I]

So you and the rest of the band talked, but the keyboard player is required to be telepathic?

i only just met him at this jam session. i did tell him "just don't play with the left hand" and he tried for a few measures but it messed him up. i encouraged him to find an authentic sounding organ sound and told him i thought so when he found one that was good. but yes, i think it's best to talk to the other folks in the band to make sure we're on the same page about this guy's readiness to gig with us. i believe he would be several months away in the best case scenario. i want to make sure the other folks in the band agree. if they do, whatever, this is a low stress situation, we'd like to get more gigs and make some money but no one is trying to pay their bills with this band or get signed.

 

[And I]

Not off topic at all: in fact this is the main point. All the useful things that have been said here about keys playing, are of no use to the OP as long as he has clearly no voice in band decisions.

OP you will have to either stand your ground (Not a single gig NOT standing next to the drummer! Not another band decision without proper motivation!) or leave.

And stop calling these jerks "friends". They are not.

i have likely overstated that part of things and several of you are reading more into this than you should really do since all you know is what i've told you. these are friends. they are nice, good people who do listen to and value my opinions. the three of them have been playing music together for a LONG ASS time though, and i've known them for 7 or so years, played in this band for 2 (and it's been an on and off thing). the where to stand on stage thing is the only area where i have been overruled without really adequate justification.

 

[buldog5151bass]

It’s pretty hard. That’s true

I’d take someone with any three of those four and be better off than with the guy he’s talking about with just #1 and #4 (assuming).

You have to remember, unlike other instruments, keyboard equipment keeps changing, and the older stuff is generally heavier and less useful. Take a good guitar or bass from a prior decade, and at best it is a bargain, if not a vintage collectible. With keyboards you have a doorstop, and an expensive one at that.

 

[Savage_Dreams]

he's played mostly folks / light rock with an acoustic guitar and/or piano, him solo or maybe one other person. a piano player covers the whole sonic spectrum. a keyboard player in a classic rock context--unless the song is a "piano song" a la elton john or something, plays hammond, rhodes, wurly, clav, or sometimes a synth / string patch, doesn't normally play in the low octaves unless doubling the bassline, and plays a "part", doesn't simply pick a rhythm and hammer away at the chord structure of the songs with both hands.

so the only piano in classic rock is elton john, got it. lol

 

[Altitude]

Sit down with the keyboardist over a coffee or beer. Tell him you love his playing, but that in a and context, it's important that no one steps on the sonic space of others. Bring some examples from the songs you are doing. He is probably used to being the lone player. He has to understand what to do (and not do). Remember, the first few times he played with them, there was no bass player.

This seems like the answer. Throw your arm around the guy, tell him he's a great player. Tell him that in an ensemble context like yours, a lot of left hand activity can clash with the bass guitar, and it's normal for a keyboard player to play less or no bass notes unless they're deliberately matched to what the bass guitar is doing.

If he's a good guy and a professional, he'll accept the coaching in good faith, make a change, and your problem is over. If he ignores you and keeps playing heavy left hand, or if he complains to the bandleader, you have a bigger problem to solve.

By the way, I bet 95% of bass players will encounter this situation at least once, if they play long enough.

 

[And I]

so the only piano in classic rock is elton john, got it. lol

i did say "a la elton john or something" as in "elton john is one example of this". so... stop putting words into my mouth please.

 

[Phil508]

When I run sound I have this conversation all the time (sometimes when when I play bass also).
Rule #1 you are not in your bedroom and do not need to cover all the bass (includes Guitars )
Rule #2 Keys try to use left hand for your drink (only use when bass is silent)
Rule #3 If rule # 1 and 2 don't work try to explain bass cancellation with them in laymans terms.
Rule #4 if the above rules don't work, bring in a couple 8x10 cabs and your SVT and crank it up.
Rule #5 as the last resort= Rage fire the drummer and quit.

 

[ArtechnikA]

By the way, I bet 95% of bass players will encounter this situation at least once, if they play long enough.

Yup - was just in a band like this, with a player like that. Lead guy mentioned a couple of times that the bass line was clashing. I wanted to say "Why the he!! is she in my octave!?" But as she is his girlfriend, I decided to defer this confrontation...

 

[bfields]

I'd bet you anything his keyboard has a few passable Rhodes and Wurlitzer samples, they're just not named that (for trademark reasons), so it'll take some trial and error. As a piano player he doesn't know the difference between all of these so may need some help. (Or may need to just go listen to the recording and see how close he can get.)

If his gear's not up to the job, as others have said, he doesn't need to go straight for the Montage/Kronos/Nord--there's a *lot* on the market between that and a low-end Yamaha PSR.

As usual, it's not really helpful when band mates insist on brand names--that's usually a sign they're listening with their eyes--it's more helpful the more specific people can be about the band's gear requirements. E.g. if you're trying to do very faithful covers then you may need multiple keyboards that can do lots of layers and splits and trigger user-loadable samples. How long are your transitions between songs? Do you need lots of realistic horn sounds? Etc.

 

[Joebone]

Only read p.1 of the thread, but big question jumps out - given the OP's account of the pianist's skill set, what is it about his playing that makes him so attractive to the other guys in the band? If they are good players, as stated by the OP, then there must be something going on. Also gotta note that I can't comprehend not being able to stand alongside the drummer...***?

 

[Space Pickle]

It's probably they aren't used to hearing keys in the context of their own band, so anytime the guy plays the correct chords it sounds louder/fuller/better.

 

[Topkat13]

If your’re not opening at Royal Albert Hall have him join you, or not, and go have some fun.

 

[Nev375]

i only just met him at this jam session. i did tell him "just don't play with the left hand" and he tried for a few measures but it messed him up.

Did ya try cutting the low end on his amp or channel?

 

[Knavery]

i have likely overstated that part of things and several of you are reading more into this than you should really do since all you know is what i've told you. these are friends. they are nice, good people who do listen to and value my opinions. the three of them have been playing music together for a LONG ASS time though, and i've known them for 7 or so years, played in this band for 2 (and it's been an on and off thing). the where to stand on stage thing is the only area where i have been overruled without really adequate justification.

No offense, but you really should get justification having known them for so long. Sounds like the guys are really latching on to the new puppy, and ignoring the older, loyal one.

 

[electracoyote]

He's a piano player, not a keyboard player.

It happens a lot. And there's a huge difference between them, especially in a pop/rock combo.

I sub for a pop cover band with a piano player. Solo, the guy is phenomenal, a true piano bar guy. He can keep you entertained all night, huge repertoire, both hands pumping like mad.

In the combo, he is often too busy, too loud, and too much low end. Organ patches create so much dissonance, phasing, and frequency combing with my bass, it's a nightmare. He does fine with strings, horns, etc., but when he plays chord progressions on piano or organ patches, it's just too much. Extremely distracting and annoying. The band and BL can't get him to tone it down and ease up. I insist on being on the opposite side of the stage. Too bad, nice guy, I really like him on a personal level, but professionally he's a menace.

By contrast, I have been playing keyboards (and guitar) in my band for the past three years. I am a keyboard player with just enough ear and ability to play what the song requires and fit in the spectrum and mix. Oh, I can show off with some snazzy ragtime and classical, but there is no need. My keys are right where they need to be always, every song. My left hand is mediocre at best, so I lean toward the right hand much of the time.

This concept can be really hard to communicate to piano players. Busy piano bar players really need to re-think their approach to become good keyboardists in a pop combo. Tread lightly. Good luck with it.

 

[juggahnaught]

Said this already - highpass his signal. I'll say it again - highpass his signal.

Also, another thought - he may be playing block chords and octaves because he's new and covering the basics; the equivalent of us playing roots on the quarter notes. This may be because you've given him charts (or you haven't, shame on you) but he doesn't have piano parts. He may be a notation reader, or maybe not. It may take a bit of time for him to lock in specific parts and lines that are complementary to what everyone's playing because you didn't give them to him.

Asking a piano player not to play with their left hand is similar to asking a bassist to only use one hand - it's possible, but not necessarily easy if you aren't used to it. Instead of asking him to use one hand (everyone on TB says this, it's honestly kind of counterproductive) ask him to play close; have him play right-hand chord voicings around or above middle C if possible and have him play a root and fifth in the left hand in the octave below, which will be an octave or more above you. He can still do block chords in this style, filling out the sound without stepping on you. (If you as a bassist don't understand how to talk to a piano player about this stuff, or what terminology to use, learn it. It's valuable.)

Don't put too much impetus on gear. Let him play what he plays; if you don't like the sound, run a MIDI cable from his board into something that generates the sounds you like.

All of this is doable, especially if it's a casual gig with friends. First practices are always rough, especially with keys; give it two months (7 more practices if it's weekly) and then you'll know.

 

[TedH]

Can you introduce him to another key player that can corroborate what you're saying vis a vis playing in a band vs. solo and staying out of the way of a bass player? That may remove the "vs." dyanmic and move it to a structural concept.

I'm feeling fortunate as my key player is fantastically skilled, both on solo piano and as a KB bandmate. Every once in a while I ask him to drop an octave to bass bomb a note and it usually has to be punctuated with "Please, really, I want you to double my note."