Keyboard Player Is a Piano Player

[40Hz]

I don’t know about the guy’s skills but if he’s got some skills he should be able to adapt quickly to changes in his arrangements so the band sounds good. In the OP’s case it was the rest of the band that brought the guy. It’d be worth a good faith effort on the OP’s part (i.e. a few sessions, not a teaching career) to try to help him fit in. If he’s not a good fit then you made the effort and you’ve got a basis for reporting that it won’t work. Then be ready to be replaced (or stepped on) by a left hand if they want to keep him anyway.

I am often taken aback at how many people here are uninterested in even trying to bring a new guy up to speed.

From the OP’s description, this keyboard player has done things that start two warning plus two red lights blinking for me. Per the OP’s first post:

Warning lights:

• …he's never played in a band before.
• He's a piano player, not a keyboard player.

Keyboards are the single hardest instrument (IMO) to integrate into an established band that never had a keyboard player before. At least in my experience. And the fact he has no former band experience makes it that more difficult.

Red lights:

• He's doing block chords with two octaves on the left hand the whole time
• …he hasn't learned any of the actual keyboard parts for the covers.

Item 1 further confirms he’s only thinking as a soloist. Which is going to require serious rethinking on his part about his musical role in a band. And that’s something many keyboard players can never manage to do. Or sustain for any length of time. The story of the camel in the tent comes to mind.

Item 2 - showing up unprepared (assuming he was told the songs) is a major faux pas in my book. It indicates there’s a good chance there’s a lack of commitment on the part of the candidate. Showing up unprepared (if they want the job) sends me a strong message not to hire the individual.

In all fairness, this might not have been an actual audition. Maybe he was just invited in to jam with the band - and unbeknownst to him he was being auditioned. Happened to me once when I got asked if I’d like to sit in on a rehearsal. I wasn’t very prepared because they were an all originals band. But I did it anyway. Had a lot fun, and managed to hold my own pretty well with just a chord chart and a stellar drummer to lock in with. After that I put it completely out of my mind until out if the blue I got an offer to join a week later. So if they guy was brought in that way, I could understand him not being fully prepared. But I’m digressing

Bottom line: Everything above is fixable or addressable. But the amount of time and work required is hard to predict without being in the room (and knowing where this keyboard guy’s head is at) a lot better.

But as I said, it really depends on the band. If I were in a tight and established working cover band I’d be leery. If I were in a startup originals band, where there was time for someone to grow into their role, I’d be far more inclined to give someone the benefit of the doubt and take a chance.

But that’s just me. I’m sure there are other equally valid opinions and viewpoints. I can only go by my own experience. And after 40+ years as a bass player and a member of about a dozen bands, I’ve learned to trust my instincts when it comes to band staffing. And my warning whiskers are twitching with this keyboard player. Not enough to send him packing out of hand…maybe. But I’d definitely expect to see rapid improvement next time we got together.

 

[Knavery]

Another thread where the bass player has absolutely no say. Why is it bass players get so little respect from other members of a band? Are they so clueless not to realize every member has equal importance? I know.... A little off topic.

 

[retslock]

Given his lack of band experience I think that gives you an easier approach to discuss the issue with him before it gets to an angrier conflict. I’m sure he could understand that there is a sonic territory that each player in a small ensemble needs to be aware of.
I prefer a pianist rather than a keyboard player any day because they are able to play nice chords with the left hand while playing lines with the right. This approach gives your band so much more scope when covering horn or string parts. It can also open up the role of the guitarist and take a little pressure off them to fill out the comping. Ensemble playing by definition is a cooperative venture.
Help educate him in the skills of making a small group work well. If he is a team player (essential to small groups) he will see that you’re coming from a good place to make the band sound much better. Consider the concept of the string quartet. Every part must be constructed in sympathy with each other part to maximise the end result. Bands are no different. Encourage him to work with you so as not to muddy the low end. He just might see that there is great freedom and creativity in this cooperative approach.
Of course he may not but you ought to try and give him a chance to respond in a reasonable way.

 

[retslock]

Another thread where the bass player has absolutely no say. Why is it bass players get so little respect from other members of a band? Are they so clueless not to realize every member has equal importance? I know.... A little off topic.

You get what you’re willing to accept. I’m going to be standing next to the drummer unless it’s physically impossible. If other band members insist I don’t without a solid reason I’m gonna be very vocal about it and stand my ground. Otherwise I would give them the need to find another bass player.

 

[retslock]

Dang, am I glad I ran across this thread. My Piano background is Classical and I wanted to get a keyboard (Yamaha CP4) and just figured I could jump right in (fat chance) I don't want to hijack the thread but is this a good choice? I can see I need to find a keyboardist and pick his brain. It's been 12/14 years since I played Piano but I won't have to relearn I can just start with the keys.

It definitely requires a different way of thinking but it’s not insurmountable. Start listening to horn and string sections as well other instruments. You have to leave behind the concept of the self-contained way of playing that most pianists start out with.

 

[okcrum]

This happens all the time when a band gets a keys player who's mostly done solo gigs. The ones worth keeping learn to adapt to the change in role.

There's a story floating around about Ron Carter pointing at a Steinway piano and telling the keys player "Everything to the left of the 'S' is mine". Word.

 

[StatesideRambler]

The guy may be a super talented and skilled piano or keyboard player, and still not posses the required skills to play in this setting. I don't think it would take long to figure it out, so sure take a bit of time to see if there is any potential. But if the ability to translate chords into voicings appropriate for the repertoire are lacking, it's not an easy fix, and I don't understand why you think anyone in the band would be qualified to teach this guy how to play keys. It may be worth the effort to encourage and help the guy learn, but he has to demonstrate the ability to recognize there is a problem and show a willingness to take responsibility for fixing it.

What you underscored, um, you didn’t read what I posted.

 

[Flamingo21]

Another thread where the bass player has absolutely no say. Why is it bass players get so little respect from other members of a band? Are they so clueless not to realize every member has equal importance? I know.... A little off topic.

Not off topic at all: in fact this is the main point. All the useful things that have been said here about keys playing, are of no use to the OP as long as he has clearly no voice in band decisions.

OP you will have to either stand your ground (Not a single gig NOT standing next to the drummer! Not another band decision without proper motivation!) or leave.

And stop calling these jerks "friends". They are not.

 

[okcrum]

Not off topic at all: in fact this is the main point. All the useful things that have been said here about keys playing, are of no use to the OP as long as he has clearly no voice in band decisions.

OP you will have to either stand your ground (Not a single gig NOT standing next to the drummer! Not another band decision without proper motivation!) or leave.

And stop calling these jerks "friends". They are not.

You've got to have some ammo to back up what you say. Just saying "I don't like the keys player" says NOTHING useful for building the band. Saying "We've gotta get together with the keys player so we're not trampling each other" says a helluva lot more. If the band doesn't listen to that kind of reality (or can't hear it in recordings of bands with keys players) then it's time to move on. The gear is small potatoes; if the band works enough, the keys player will be expected to upgrade his act.

 

[Wasnex]

What you underscored, um, you didn’t read what I posted.

Here is the specific line I was responding to.

...It’d be worth a good faith effort on the OP’s part (i.e. a few sessions, not a teaching career) to try to help him fit in...

I guess my assessment of the situation is a bit different than yours. IMHO, the solution will likely be a lot more involved than having a few sessions to work things out. Based upon what the OP has written, it seems pretty clear the piano player doesn't have the skills or know how to do the job, so training is required. As a result, I interpreted your response to be laying it on the bass player to teach the keyboard player, but maybe I am inferring more from the situation than your actual intent. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

I am not opposed to bringing in an under skilled musician as long as they have the ability to recognize where they have problems, have a good work ethic, and take responsibility for making things right. I'll even do extra sessions to help bring things together. If they don't recognize they have problems and show a willingness to work, then I don't waste my time. So far, the description of the keyboard player gets a .

 

[StatesideRambler]

I'll even do extra sessions to help bring things together.

That is exactly my point. We don’t know at all if he can be brought around to ensemble playing but I am all in favor of giving up a little time if he’s willing to try to learn to share our musical space. Because it’s the bass he’s crowding it should be the bass player who does some one on one with him. The other guys in the band don’t even want the bass next to the drums where he belongs so we know they need to stay out of the way.

Maybe he will go down in flames but with a little knowledgeable attention he may figure it out and become a great bandmate. We can’t know from here.

 

[HawldieMPB]

Just ask him to make some space for you in the low end. This is pretty regular communication between bandmates. Things can/should be negotiated. Just be kind and cool about it. Should be alright

 

[Turbo Sparky]

I play in a mostly covers classic rock (with some soul / groove) group. Currently it's 2 guitars, bass (we all sing), and drums. We are all very experienced (thousands of shows played each) and pretty good at what we do individually, and as a band. We don't really have an official band leader, but I'm certainly the low man on the totem pole as I've found out when trying to negotiate our stage setup so I can stand next to the drummer and having been shot down categorically with no good reason given... The other 3 guys have known / played with each other for a long time and I've "only" known the guitarist for 7 years... That having been said it's a good group of guys, we communicate well for the most part, and we're friends.

So I go away for a few weeks, and I'm told there is a keyboard player coming on board, which we've talked about before. Great! I'm psyched. They jammed with him a couple of times while I was away. We schedule a rehearsal when I'm back. I meet the keyboard player, he's cool, nice guy. He has performance experience, but he's never played in a band before. He's a piano player, not a keyboard player. He's doing block chords with two octaves on the left hand the whole time. We all have pro gear and he's got a cheap yamaha keyboard which has no decent rhodes, wurly, or hammond sounds, he hasn't learned any of the actual keyboard parts for the covers.

So after the jam, one of the guys asks me what I think, and I more or less tell him--nice guy, has some talent, but is not a "keyboard player" and needs a lot of work before he would be gig ready with us. But at the same time I conceded that there are no experienced players with nord electros knocking on our door. He more or less agreed. I text one of the other guys (who was telling this "keyboard" player how good he sounded after the rehearsal) and let him know my issues, that I don't think he's a good fit. No response.

The goal for this band is to play a few local / regional gigs a month (for money), and to sound professional. I play in another band already so my "play music" fix is covered... So, what would you do in this situation?

Wow. Here's my opinion. If what you write is true, then:
1. Musicians that DON'T think a bass player doesn't need/should stand near the other half of the rhythm section, for the most part, are NOT "in it to win it" nor know the symbiotic relationship between a kick/snare/high hat and a bass. It's about them and image primarily.
2. I feel you are "the best bassist they can find/use" right now. As if the 3 Amigos go through the motions, but actually believe, Shut up, sit down, and play your role period."
3. I sense your resentment for the "keys" player. Using an adjective such as "cheap" when describing his Ginsu of choice, but hear what you infer regarding sound/tones generated with other keyboard manufacturers and software.
4. People who "ask" for others opinions, then do not like what they hear in the feedback, and probably hold resentment for the person based on the response/feedback received are just going through the motions of "professionalism" and could actually care less about you. See 1 and 2 above.
5. Only 7 years? Wow. Ask yourself, "If I built a time machine, go back and find the guitarist a year and a day sooner, would that change anything if someone knew them two days longer?"
6. See 1 and 2 above.
7. Good luck.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Years ago an acquaintance said of his bands keyboard player "isn't he great" and I noted that whilst he nominally had great chops, his left hand was very much too active, especially as he was mostly playing root notes in the bass, and the bassist wasn't, which was making things horribly muddy.

About the same time I was playing second guitar and keys in a band, and the main guitarist went down with flu a few days before an important gig, and the BL suggested he swapped from bass to guitar (he was the better guitarist, I was the better bassist) and I cover the bass on the keys for half the set. I refused in the end as after one practice it became apparent that just stabbing out root notes wasn't really going to cut it, and I didn't know the bass parts in detail, including the ones I'd written!

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I once used a cheap Yamaha on a gig as it was part of the back line and all I needed were basic sounds and it reduced the need to swap. It wasn't too bad, not that I needed a piano sound. The big issue was I had fairly significant release set for string parts, but the Yamaha sort of stopped dead, and I had no idea how to change it.

If the keyboard player has MIDI out on DIN then it wouldn't be too hard to pick up a synth module with better sounds to use. It might be possible to pick up a complete old keyboard, but keyboards have mechanical parts that may fail. Saying that, I picked up two old 4 octave M-Audio keyboards for £10 at a car boot sale which worked fine after I removed the pencil inside one of them. I have an EMU three octave one, which suffices for home recording, and would be fine in principle for synth bass lines live. But I like to have a backup.

 

[juggahnaught]

I committed a cardinal sin - I didn't read the entire thread. However, I searched for the replies by the original poster @And I and it looks like there haven't been any new developments.

Talk to the keyboardist. If he hasn't gigged before and he hasn't played with a bassist, he's not intentionally trying to step on you. Piano is a full-range, multi-voice instrument - he's used to accompanying himself, and that's something you'll have to work on together. He'll have to learn to play "close", and you'll have to learn to anticipate his chord changes, chord voicings, and transitional chords (which can be difficult sometimes). If you were playing fusion, gospel, or even jazz, this would be harder as there's a lot more expression involved - but if you're playing classic rock, it's definitely doable as the arrangements are simpler and there's not as much room for improvisation.

Having someone who is trained on piano is a plus. It will take time for him to acclimate to the new position, though - like asking a classical violinist to play the fiddle or play the blues.

Stick with him, take some time. Once he's able to pick up the style you're looking for, he'll be a lot more versatile in many other ways that you can't yet see.

Also, don't run him through any subs - highpass his signal.

 

[Yukimajo]

Hi @And I
I think you are right to be concerned. I was trying to become a keyboard player until a tendon injury in my right arm has forced me away from it, but the most fundamental thing you learn when playing keys is to not step on the other band members. Bass lines are covered, unsurprisingly by the bass player. You have to concentrate on comping during the guitar solos and flying when it's your turn to do so. There are times when you need to use the left hand, but these are for expression and need to be handled with subtlety and a deftness of touch! When you get in to a band, you are part of a greater whole not a collection of individuals all vying to show off your skills.

As for his kit, there is no excuse for not having any good organ and Rhodes sounds. I have a Roland VR-09B which is fantastic and is designed to be a live playing board. It also costs less than £700 new (I'm not sure of the US price). I have a friend who has been playing a B3 since the '60s and he says the Hammond emulation is one of the best he's heard. It also has a transistor organ for those Doors inspired moments! If you were UK based I'd suggest he buys mine as it's for sale, but shipping to the US would be ridiculous!

 

[Slevage]

Link Wray's piano player does it right:

That’s a piano player?
NOT

 

[TheBassPreacher]

Talk to the keyboardist. If he hasn't gigged before and he hasn't played with a bassist, he's not intentionally trying to step on you. Piano is a full-range, multi-voice instrument - he's used to accompanying himself, and that's something you'll have to work on together. He'll have to learn to play "close", and you'll have to learn to anticipate his chord changes, chord voicings, and transitional chords (which can be difficult sometimes). If you were playing fusion, gospel, or even jazz, this would be harder as there's a lot more expression involved - but if you're playing classic rock, it's definitely doable as the arrangements are simpler and there's not as much room for improvisation.

Having someone who is trained on piano is a plus. It will take time for him to acclimate to the new position, though - like asking a classical violinist to play the fiddle or play the blues.

Stick with him, take some time. Once he's able to pick up the style you're looking for, he'll be a lot more versatile in many other ways that you can't yet see.

This is kind of my thought. Though I'm going to be a bit mean here. Why in the whole rehearsal didn't you talk to the guy and just tell him, "Hey your kind of stepping on my sonic space here."

You mentioned they jammed with this guy while you were gone, so maybe they asked him to cover the bass lines for the time and he didn't think/didn't know the shouldn't once you got back. Obviously the rest of your band is a bit clueless too, since they are anti you standing next to the drums. So you should have mentioned something. Using your own words, you have said that this guy is obviously inexperienced.

It just seems like the better thing to do is address any issue you have with his playing and whatever during the rehearsal instead of going behind this guy's back and complaining to the other band members after the fact. Then going on here and complaining more about the guy. Honestly the guy might be more than willing to adjust, but probably just doesn't know any better. He's just hearing this one guy telling him how good he is sounding and thinks he's doing the right thing.

I've dealt with plenty of Keyboardists and Pianists being in bands, and have played keys and piano some too. Most of the time they just don't know any better. Some are so set in their ways that they can't change, but most just need to be told because you have a certain way you want the guy to play. Even if he had experience it can be difficult because different bands want their keyboardists to do different things.

In addition adding more members to a band is always an adjustment for everyone. Every piece you add means more sonic space is taken up by someone else, so everyone has to be conscious about what they are playing. Again, this is where communication comes in.

 

[nilorius]

As a bass player you can't decide if he is a pro keyboard player or not, the only thing he needs is an experience. Just explain to him what are the problems you don't like and in short time he will fix them all.