Kids on leashes

[Kwesi]

I disagree that its "random chance depending on the kid" but rather understanding the way an individual child learns and teachign to that strength. Yes, every parent will have trouble figuring that out, but I dont think I would call that "random chance". This whole "debate" is reminiscent of the whole "smacking your child" issue.

I stand by what I said and I'll try to be a little more detailed in a sec.

It's not luck, it's training.

Got kids?

And how many children have you raised?

This is the problem. People give up and say it is to hard.
Being a parent IS hard.

Nope no kids, but I've been around plenty of parents and heard enough stories that I don't think I'm quite disqualified form the conversation . You both have your kids and were able to raise them well and all that without a leash, or whatever else you deem unnecessary, right? That's great but suppose, for the sake of argument, that you were to raise an infinite number of kids. Who's to say that you'd be able to adapt well enough to any of them to train them effectively without a leash?

Every child is different and, yes, as a parent it is your duty to figure what methods work best for raising that particular child. But, as more than a few have said, sometimes it can be hard -- in fact it will be hard, so what's wrong with maybe making the job a little easier? I've seen plenty of good parents struggle with their kids. Take me for example. I wasn't loud or hyper as a little guy but yet I got lost all over the place because I was pretty much a space cadet. Lost at Sea World, lost in the grocery store, lost in Six Flags. I'm sure you know that parents have to pay attention to pretty much everything all the time and, from what I've heard, when you're trying to enjoy yourself and keep an eye on things a kid that doesn't make a whole lot of noise can pretty easily just drop off the map. My brother on the other hand was a bold little ball of energy. If he acted up he knew he would get a spanking or have things taken from him but he did what he wanted to. One word was not going to stop him. And there more examples I can give of different children being different.

I'm not discrediting either of your parenting skills by saying you got lucky, but you did. I'm sure you'd like to think that even if you have a million more kids you could have them all marching to the beat of your drum but there's no way to say for sure how that would go. There are plenty of parents out there who, despite their best efforts, have a hard time keeping their young ones under control with the help things like leashes provide.

 

[guy n. cognito]

I stand by what I said and I'll try to be a little more detailed in a sec.





Nope no kids, but I've been around plenty of parents and heard enough stories that I don't think I'm quite disqualified form the conversation . You both have your kids and were able to raise them well and all that without a leash, or whatever else you deem unnecessary, right? That's great but suppose, for the sake of argument, that you were to raise an infinite number of kids. Who's to say that you'd be able to adapt well enough to any of them to train them effectively without a leash?

Every child is different and, yes, as a parent it is your duty to figure what methods work best for raising that particular child. But, as more than a few have said, sometimes it can be hard -- in fact it will be hard, so what's wrong with maybe making the job a little easier? I've seen plenty of good parents struggle with their kids. Take me for example. I wasn't loud or hyper as a little guy but yet I got lost all over the place because I was pretty much a space cadet. Lost at Sea World, lost in the grocery store, lost in Six Flags. I'm sure you know that parents have to pay attention to pretty much everything all the time and, from what I've heard, when you're trying to enjoy yourself and keep an eye on things a kid that doesn't make a whole lot of noise can pretty easily just drop off the map. My brother on the other hand was a bold little ball of energy. If he acted up he knew he would get a spanking or have things taken from him but he did what he wanted to. One word was not going to stop him. And there more examples I can give of different children being different.

I'm not discrediting either of your parenting skills by saying you got lucky, but you did. I'm sure you'd like to think that even if you have a million more kids you could have them all marching to the beat of your drum but there's no way to say for sure how that would go. There are plenty of parents out there who, despite their best efforts, have a hard time keeping their young ones under control with the help things like leashes provide.

I appreciate that you've talked to a few people and, therefore, have an informed opinion on the subject. I can promise you, since I actually did it, that it was not luck that my kids obey me. It took a lot of hard work and training. Barring mental issues, all kids can be trained; only the methods and time period vary. Some parents are unable or unwilling to use appropriate methods for more difficult children and therefore fail at their attempts.

If a leash is acceptable for children that "can't be controlled," then how about a muzzle for a child that bites?

 

[BartmanPDX]

We actually tried that skiing tether with Kira. Eventually had to give up because she absolutely would NOT pay the slightest attention to where she was going. She'd just go straight down the slope and be looking up in the trees, down at her hands, etc.. Several wrecks did not have any effect, nor did our constant admonishments to look where she was going.

I love skiing, but you gotta look where you're going now and then.

I miss skiing.

OT, I think kids are on a spectrum from perfectly normal to profoundly disabled like my daughter. Most kids are thankfully toward the norm; some have minor issues, a few are more severe.

My daughter's condition is obvious but I know there are a number of kids out there who look "normal" but who have processing issues like my daughter. She does not respond to positive or negative reinforcement, because she does not attend or focus as a typical person would.

 

[Kwesi]

I appreciate that you've talked to a few people and, therefore, have an informed opinion on the subject. I can promise you, since I actually did it, that it was not luck that my kids obey me. It took a lot of hard work and training. Barring mental issues, all kids can be trained; only the methods and time period vary. Some parents are unable or unwilling to use appropriate methods for more difficult children and therefore fail at their attempts.

If a leash is acceptable for children that "can't be controlled," then how about a muzzle for a child that bites?

Well, I did babysit quite a few times .

 

[MakiSupaStar]

We actually tried that skiing tether with Kira. Eventually had to give up because she absolutely would NOT pay the slightest attention to where she was going. She'd just go straight down the slope and be looking up in the trees, down at her hands, etc.. Several wrecks did not have any effect, nor did our constant admonishments to look where she was going.

I love skiing, but you gotta look where you're going now and then.

I miss skiing.

I honestly don't think skiing with a leash on kids is a bad idea for all kids, let alone one's with disabilities. I've seen some scary stuff with kids running out of control. Saw one go right into the parking lot. She hit a trash can and fell. A little bruised, but nothing serious. That could have been a LOT worse.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Depends.
If by "trained" you mean: immediately and obediently obeying my every command instantaneously without hesitation or question, then no

If you mean, usually doing what I tell them to do, occasionally testing my authority and occasionally doing the goofy things that kids are wont to do, then yes.

Well, you know that's not what I mean, but it doesn't make as dramatic of a point.

So do you suggest leashing a kid simply because they MIGHT disobey you and leave your presence?

 

[Relic]

Well, you know that's not what I mean, but it doesn't make as dramatic of a point.

So do you suggest leashing a kid simply because they MIGHT disobey you and leave your presence?

yeah that was over-dramatic, I'll give you that but I'm just following your lead

Seriously though - no, I'm not suggesting leashing a kid because they might disobey you. That's too simple a way to look at it. I'd rather go with; I'd rather leash my kid if lets say we were at the Grand Canyon and I knew that my kid has a tendency to bolt away, something like that. Or if my kid had developmental issues and disciplining and teaching was slow-going and he could get into danger and so on
I'm not at all suggesting a leash so I can text while window shopping. It seems like that's more so what your picturing in your head with this? I dunno

 

[fdeck]

I appreciate that you've talked to a few people and, therefore, have an informed opinion on the subject. I can promise you, since I actually did it, that it was not luck that my kids obey me. It took a lot of hard work and training. Barring mental issues, all kids can be trained; only the methods and time period vary. Some parents are unable or unwilling to use appropriate methods for more difficult children and therefore fail at their attempts.

I think psychologists have proven that people can be trained to any level of obedience.

If a leash is acceptable for children that "can't be controlled," then how about a muzzle for a child that bites?

Slippery slope argument.

I think that a leash is acceptable for children who can be controlled by other means, if the parents deem it to be an appropriate restraint under the circumstances. As I said, I've never used a leash myself, but I'll leave it up to other parents to decide what they want to do.

I've also never taken my kids to a mall food court.

 

[tZer]

I consider leashes for kids (who are healthy with no mitigating issues) to be more than just demeaning. I believe they are a poor substitute for teaching your children how to learn to understand what their limits are1​ and how to recognize them.

Traditionally, we teach our kids, when they're toddlers, that they aren't permitted to just wander off. But when they eventually do, we go and get them and make sure they understand that they broke the rules2​ and there are negative consequenses (such as a time out or whatever else might be appropriate).

This is part of a learning process that sets up a type of thinking in a child's head that makes them always aware of what their boundaries are. They know that even though they might be capable of running off they will instead employ some self discipline and stay put.

Use a leash and the only thing a child learns is - the boundary is where the leash ends. Eventually, the leash will no longer be used and the kid will need to start from the very beginning to learn how to use self discipline in respecting boundaries. Now, instead of you chasing after a toddler who is learning about boundaries, you're chasing after an older kid who is a lot faster and a lot harder to catch.

1) It's very easy to ignore any other relevant reasons why a parent my use a tether or leash to protect their child and make sweeping statements that once again characterize parents who use them as inept or shirking their duties as teachers and guardians of their children.

I'll play the 'flip' game and cite that a parent whose child has wandered off - or bolted into a dangerous situation more than a couple times regardless of being taught the inherent dangers of such actions and who doesn't opt for some mechanism, like a leash in such dangerous situations, is equally negligent.

2) "..But when they eventually do, we go and get them..." Well - let's just hope that you are able to find them and that they are not smeared on the parking lot when you do.

Such caviler attitudes about how great a parent you might think you are could also be considered negligent. "I taught my kid not to do that - and most of the time, they obeyed. I never thought my great teachings and parenting skills might simply not be enough to protect them..."

I am certainly not advocating such a restraint as a SUBSTITUTE for good parenting - as many here are trying to frame it - I, and others, are pointing out that there are circumstances where it is a viable solution to a very real parenting need. It might also be a reaction to a close call - but it is not necessarily an indication of bad parenting. Like anything - it can be used badly and I'll agree that on the surface it can appear to be less than ideal - even demeaning. But leaping to the conclusion that it's indicative of a parent who is less than able to be a parent is simply wrong.

We have already seen posts where some people have pointed out how it's not only a good solution to a very real parenting need - but it's probably the best solutions AND that on the surface many people will react badly - as many here are - right up until they are shown that they are 100% in error in their leap to judgment.

I, like many, am 100% against BAD parenting. It's not the mechanism that's responsible for that - it's the parent attached to the end of it who is. Sometimes the parent that's attached to the end is actually the best parent and doing exactly what they need to to do exactly what that child needs them to do.

 

[Relic]

1)

I am certainly not advocating such a restraint as a SUBSTITUTE for good parenting - as many here are trying to frame it - I, and others, are pointing out that there are circumstances where it is a viable solution to a very real parenting need. It might also be a reaction to a close call - but it is not necessarily an indication of bad parenting. Like anything - it can be used badly and I'll agree that on the surface it can appear to be less than ideal - even demeaning. But leaping to the conclusion that it's indicative of a parent who is less than able to be a parent is simply wrong.


.

Yeah +1 to that.
It's funny how tZer and I are polar opposites on spanking but are in lockstep with this
But like I always tend to say in parenting sorts of threads, properly parenting a child requires a parent to have a near bottomless toolbox full of tools and such to raise their child. When my kids were little, I had that leash in my "toolbox". You dont EVER ever just rely on one single "tool". Did I ever need to use it? Nah, luckily not, but if I felt that I needed to I certainly would have. It was there with about a thousand other tools at my disposal to keep my kids safe, loved, well-adjusted and happy.
Like hbarcat says - a leash is a awful tool and I agree but I agree so long as we're talking about a leash alone and in and of itself. That's not only negligent but it's just stupid. If your child knows his/her boundaries by other means, then a leash may not even be necessary save for the rare occasion where I as a parent would rather err on the side of caution and be judged rather than regret it if my child was ever hurt.

Honestly, I just cannot understand those who are so vehemently against this?? Wouldn't you do anything it would take to keep your child safe?? Most will never need the leash, true. I didnt. But if I felt that I did need to use it? I sure as hell would.

 

[tZer]

Yeah +1 to that.
It's funny how tZer and I are polar opposites on spanking but are in lockstep with this

I think we're opposites only in that I choose not to use that but have learned that just because I choose that way that doesn't mean those who choose otherwise are wrong - or as some here are saying - evidence of negligent parenting.

My stance on that topic was at first very dogmatic and because of that was inappropriate and offensive to those who see things differently. The way I was framing my end of the debate was inappropriately characterizing those who see things differently because of that - and many here were offended by my point of view and said so in no uncertain terms.

Since the first brew-ha-ha on the spanking topic I have altered my point of view to include the fact that some parents use different techniques - even ones I personally am opposed to - but that doesn't make them bad or negligent or abusive. It is in how they use them that counts, not because they use them.

That's what I see going on here. Some folks seem intent on making the use of a leash on a toddler automatically mean that parent is somehow failing in their duties as a parent. While any parenting technique can be executed badly - spanking vs. abuse - leashing for the child's safety vs. not wanting to take responsibility for teaching toddlers not to wander off or bolt into traffic - the technique or mechanism per se is not automatically indicative of parental failure or ineptitude - as some here seem to believe.

If I can see the 'other side' and recognize the error in my personal dogma, I think others can too. But that may be where I am naive.

 

[guy n. cognito]

1) It's very easy to ignore any other relevant reasons why a parent my use a tether or leash to protect their child and make sweeping statements that once again characterize parents who use them as inept or shirking their duties as teachers and guardians of their children.

I'll play the 'flip' game and cite that a parent whose child has wandered off - or bolted into a dangerous situation more than a couple times regardless of being taught the inherent dangers of such actions and who doesn't opt for some mechanism, like a leash in such dangerous situations, is equally negligent.

2) "..But when they eventually do, we go and get them..." Well - let's just hope that you are able to find them and that they are not smeared on the parking lot when you do.

Such caviler attitudes about how great a parent you might think you are could also be considered negligent. "I taught my kid not to do that - and most of the time, they obeyed. I never thought my great teachings and parenting skills might simply not be enough to protect them..."

I am certainly not advocating such a restraint as a SUBSTITUTE for good parenting - as many here are trying to frame it - I, and others, are pointing out that there are circumstances where it is a viable solution to a very real parenting need. It might also be a reaction to a close call - but it is not necessarily an indication of bad parenting. Like anything - it can be used badly and I'll agree that on the surface it can appear to be less than ideal - even demeaning. But leaping to the conclusion that it's indicative of a parent who is less than able to be a parent is simply wrong.

We have already seen posts where some people have pointed out how it's not only a good solution to a very real parenting need - but it's probably the best solutions AND that on the surface many people will react badly - as many here are - right up until they are shown that they are 100% in error in their leap to judgment.

I, like many, am 100% against BAD parenting. It's not the mechanism that's responsible for that - it's the parent attached to the end of it who is. Sometimes the parent that's attached to the end is actually the best parent and doing exactly what they need to to do exactly what that child needs them to do.

Every kid I know....literally every kid I've ever known, has gotten lost or bolted at some point in their life. Fortunately, most parents don't take that as an opportunity to leash their kids, but rather to teach them the dangers of their actions.

For some fun, google "leash" and "Verizon." you'll find a video that demonstrates good parenting at work, using a leash of course.

 

[Relic]

I think we're opposites only in that I choose not to use that but have learned that just because I choose that way that doesn't mean those who choose otherwise are wrong - or as some here are saying - evidence of negligent parenting.

My stance on that topic was at first very dogmatic and because of that was inappropriate and offensive to those who see things differently. The way I was framing my end of the debate was inappropriately characterizing those who see things differently because of that - and many here were offended by my point of view and said so in no uncertain terms.

Since the first brew-ha-ha on the spanking topic I have altered my point of view to include the fact that some parents use different techniques - even ones I personally am opposed to - but that doesn't make them bad or negligent or abusive. It is in how they use them that counts, not because they use them.

That's what I see going on here. Some folks seem intent on making the use of a leash on a toddler automatically mean that parent is somehow failing in their duties as a parent. While any parenting technique can be executed badly - spanking vs. abuse - leashing for the child's safety vs. not wanting to take responsibility for teaching toddlers not to wander off or bolt into traffic - the technique or mechanism per se is not automatically indicative of parental failure or ineptitude - as some here seem to believe.

If I can see the 'other side' and recognize the error in my personal dogma, I think others can too. But that may be where I am naive.

No, you nailed it dude. I've personally learned a lot from such threads - as in: "different" does not automatically mean "wrong". So long as the child grows up happy, healthy, safe and cared for - that's what counts. Many of us can argue the small details all day long but in the end, no one's going to "win" that argument because there really IS not win/lose there.

 

[macaroni tony]

If I can see the 'other side' and recognize the error in my personal dogma, I think others can too. But that may be where I am naive.

Takes a big man to say that. Especially on teh interwebz!

 

[Time Monkey]

My cousin used to have to be tethered.

He is adopted and im pretty sure that he is a fetal alcohol premie babie.

Anyways... Now he is 22, never had a job, failed community college twice, lives at home, and has a baby.

Maybe they should have let him fall down the ledge, ya know?

 

[aborgman]

If my 3 year old or 2 year old start to cross the street without looking, I can stop them with one word....not by tugging their leash. It took training to get them to that point, but none of that training required a leash.

Did you avoid roads altogether prior to the training taking effect? Training takes time.

 

[tZer]

Every kid I know....literally every kid I've ever known, has gotten lost or bolted at some point in their life. Fortunately, most parents don't take that as an opportunity to leash their kids, but rather to teach them the dangers of their actions.

For some fun, google "leash" and "Verizon." you'll find a video that demonstrates good parenting at work, using a leash of course.

You are lucky. That doesn't make your point of view correct. Assuming your experience is THE experience is simply wrong.

A leash can and is used for good - and for bad reasons. It's use alone without context cannot be judged effectively nor can the parents who use them.

You - and others - are either purposefully or ignorantly insulting people who do not deserve it. Accept it or not, but that's what you are doing.

And I do not need your video link to know how to be a good parent. But thanks for sharing.

 

[aborgman]

But they can all be trained, can't they?

Over time, yes.

Problem is, one mistake before that training is complete and they're dead.

Makes it hard to finish the training.

 

[aborgman]

Traditionally, we teach our kids, when they're toddlers, that they aren't permitted to just wander off. But when they eventually do, we go and get them and make sure they understand that they broke the rules and there are negative consequenses (such as a time out or whatever else might be appropriate).

Problem is the situation where the negative consequences for wandering off are death instead of a time out.

Learning from your mistakes is great except when those mistake kill you.

Use a leash and the only thing a child learns is - the boundary is where the leash ends. Eventually, the leash will no longer be used and the kid will need to start from the very beginning to learn how to use self discipline in respecting boundaries. Now, instead of you chasing after a toddler who is learning about boundaries, you're chasing after an older kid who is a lot faster and a lot harder to catch.

I agree - if you ALWAYS used a leash and NEVER taught the kid to behave off of it.

This implies that parents who use leashes ALWAYS use them. In my experience most parents who use leashes RARELY use them, and only in situations where they're afraid for the child's safety.

 

[tZer]

Problem is the situation where the negative consequences for wandering off are death instead of a time out.

Learning from your mistakes is great except when those mistake kill you.



I agree - if you ALWAYS used a leash and NEVER taught the kid to behave off of it.

This implies that parents who use leashes ALWAYS use them. In my experience most parents who use leashes RARELY use them, and only in situations where they're afraid for the child's safety.

Dude, stop making sense... that takes all the fun out of riding high horses!