Welcome back to the thread Ken
Did you delete your post where you said you were done and not coming back? Again.
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KSD...Lesson Learned, pt. II
- Thread starter Guiseppe
- Start date
- Status
Welcome back to the thread Ken
Did you delete your post where you said you were done and not coming back? Again.I gave my dad's name, isn't that good enough? As for the "add hominems" you are hinting at, I was being kind.Your post is worthless as you have not revealed your full true name
But thank your for your add hominems.
bongomania
Commercial User
Are you effing kidding? Problem solved? For him maybe, as long as he doesn't misplace that particular wrench. What about the thousands of other customers who got bogus-sized parts, should they all have just understood that it's commonplace to go buy an oversized wrench and grind it down? That's like a totally normal part of buying a guitar, no big deal? Come on.
This is exactly the kind of thing that manufacturers have to be held accountable for. If they can't deliver a "normal" product, then it's their problem- not the customer (who should not be expected to have to modify household tools to work with their new POS guitar). They can blame the overseas fabricators all they want, but it's the importer's job to be sure what they bought wholesale is up to an appropriate standard for resale. No compliance? They need to get the factory into compliance- not pass the buck onto the customer and then say "not our problem".
Incidentally I'm talking about BG here, not KS. And if BG can't correct the OP's wrench problem in a timely fashion, then they fouled up and it's appropriate to bring this foulup to the public eye.
IME Mike has been quite willing to discuss with me basses I own that he did not make that have his name on them. I've also had discussions with him about flaws in his product and he never got angry or blamed anyone else. He seemed to think it was his problem to work it out and I respect him for that.
In an earlier thread Ken said that was not his website. It's registered to someone named Ken Smith but he says it's not his site
Doesn't he already have that in his version of the overseas J clone?You got Ken Smith Design, which Ken doesn't build or support. Then you got MTD, which stands for Michael Tobias Design, and is built and supported by Mr. Tobias. It's no wonder the consumer is confused.
Let us all hope that Roger doesn't introduce a "Sadowsky Design" line.
Just try calling Roger with a problem in one of those
Full names are required according to Ken's rules, disobey one you disobey all!! Forgive the hyperbole
Thanks for your kindness.
Ok Mr. Smith.
My name is Ted Donaldson. I'm a college music performance major (so you know where I'm coming from). I have the utmost appreciation for your products (KSB). I can't afford one of those, and don't know enough about high end basses to know if it'd be my main bass, but I've heard them and like them a lot. Obviously, I didn't get a KSD bass for its similarity to your own basses (I would have been dissapointed). I got it because I liked it better than the fender equivalents at the same price point. It's not my main bass, but I love it as a classic/modern sounding fretless. I haven't had any of the issues that have been spoken about here.
Like I said earlier though, until I saw this thread, I had no idea that BG was the distributor of it. You may not have very many physical or literal ties to the company or the basses, but your name is on the product. I bought it under the impression that it would have similar quality to the KSB basses, albeit imported. I knew the design was different but I was under the impression that you were at least in some part involved in the development.
At this point it seems you are attempting to have a hands off approach to these basses. And that's totally OK. I'm hoping to go to the more business side of music. I understand how little agreements like this come about. Whether you like it or not, though, your name is on the bass. People don't see them and associate them with BG, they associate it with you. Even if you have ABSOLUTELY no ties to them, people are going to COMPLETELY relate them back to you. Just like people continued to attribute Fender basses to Leo after he left that company. His name has been and will always be on those basses. People will always associate them with him. I just don't see why you are so surprised when people come to you with questions about them--especially when the name itself implies that you designed it.
Take my words with a grain of salt. I know I'm probably just a "damn kid" to you, but like it or not I see these things and make with you and your company. You can take a completely laissez faire attitude towards a product that bears your name if you like. Just know all of us future consumers are sitting back and taking note.
My name is Ted Donaldson. I'm a college music performance major (so you know where I'm coming from). I have the utmost appreciation for your products (KSB). I can't afford one of those, and don't know enough about high end basses to know if it'd be my main bass, but I've heard them and like them a lot. Obviously, I didn't get a KSD bass for its similarity to your own basses (I would have been dissapointed). I got it because I liked it better than the fender equivalents at the same price point. It's not my main bass, but I love it as a classic/modern sounding fretless. I haven't had any of the issues that have been spoken about here.
Like I said earlier though, until I saw this thread, I had no idea that BG was the distributor of it. You may not have very many physical or literal ties to the company or the basses, but your name is on the product. I bought it under the impression that it would have similar quality to the KSB basses, albeit imported. I knew the design was different but I was under the impression that you were at least in some part involved in the development.
At this point it seems you are attempting to have a hands off approach to these basses. And that's totally OK. I'm hoping to go to the more business side of music. I understand how little agreements like this come about. Whether you like it or not, though, your name is on the bass. People don't see them and associate them with BG, they associate it with you. Even if you have ABSOLUTELY no ties to them, people are going to COMPLETELY relate them back to you. Just like people continued to attribute Fender basses to Leo after he left that company. His name has been and will always be on those basses. People will always associate them with him. I just don't see why you are so surprised when people come to you with questions about them--especially when the name itself implies that you designed it.
Take my words with a grain of salt. I know I'm probably just a "damn kid" to you, but like it or not I see these things and make with you and your company. You can take a completely laissez faire attitude towards a product that bears your name if you like. Just know all of us future consumers are sitting back and taking note.
I've been lurking on this thread, and I just gotta' chim in here... I can't believe this has gone this far...
You don't buy your basses from Ken, he's not the vendor or the manufacturer. If you assumed that based on the "qualified" name on the headstock, that's ok, but as soon as he made it clear he wasn't the "source", he should have been off the hook with no further objections, yet people keep going after him. Why is that? What do you hope to gain? What's the end goal here?
The info on the headstock is just attributing credit to add value to the bass noting it's design was at least partially contributed to by a well known and respected luthier. That's not at all the same thing as assigning product responsibility. I personally don't see a problem with that.
Even more to the point, nobody went to G&L to get support on Fender basses, either.
Visirale, don't get me wrong, everybody should be able to vent their complaints about a product that has problems. The key is, take it to the right place.
IMHO/FWIW as always.
I know you're not talking to me, and I hope this doesn't upset you, but while I kinda' see your point, Ken is really totally in the right here.
You don't buy your basses from Ken, he's not the vendor or the manufacturer. If you assumed that based on the "qualified" name on the headstock, that's ok, but as soon as he made it clear he wasn't the "source", he should have been off the hook with no further objections, yet people keep going after him. Why is that? What do you hope to gain? What's the end goal here?
No offense, but c'mon, if you really felt that way, you wouldn't have written the post. Be honest.
The info on the headstock is just attributing credit to add value to the bass noting it's design was at least partially contributed to by a well known and respected luthier. That's not at all the same thing as assigning product responsibility. I personally don't see a problem with that.
He was, but that doesn't make him ultimately responsible for the final product. It only makes him a contributor to the design. Ultimately, the manufacturer and vendor are solely responsible, because they're solely responsible for the execution of the designs which contain (but may not even be solely based on) his input.
That's ok, but folks should let go as soon as the facts are revealed.
But this argument holds no water. Nobody goes to Leo Fender with questions or complaints about Fender basses.
Even more to the point, nobody went to G&L to get support on Fender basses, either.
Visirale, don't get me wrong, everybody should be able to vent their complaints about a product that has problems. The key is, take it to the right place.
IMHO/FWIW as always.
Vic thanks for the reply. I agree with pretty much everything you said. That's the way it SHOULD be. But I'm talking about the good old fashioned association with a name. I agree that he has no ties to the product at all and shouldn't be held responsible. That doesn't mean people won't.
I just think when his name is on the product, he'd be a little more concerned with keeping his name in good standing. I know if I created a product, and sold it off to another company, if it had my name on it, I'd still check in on them to make sure that people would still hold my name in good standing with the consumers.
I don't know, I'm young and inexperienced in business. I just know I'd try to defend my name a little more actively.
All of course, IMHO with the utmost respect for Mr. Smith.
I just think when his name is on the product, he'd be a little more concerned with keeping his name in good standing. I know if I created a product, and sold it off to another company, if it had my name on it, I'd still check in on them to make sure that people would still hold my name in good standing with the consumers.
I don't know, I'm young and inexperienced in business. I just know I'd try to defend my name a little more actively.
All of course, IMHO with the utmost respect for Mr. Smith.
I see your point, and generally somewhat concur! I guess my thing is, it seems like he's just being hammered too much for something that doesn't warrant it.
Of course I'm not Ken's self-proclaimed defender, and he doesn't need one. In fact, I'd be the first one to admit he can be a bit abrasive at times, but at the end of the day, he's right, and people should have let it go sooner.
I would be too, but it seems like the direction this has taken is to not be just a "hey Ken, you might want to disassociate your name with this product, these guys aren't representing you very well", but instead, be more like "Ken, this product has problems, and you need to deal with it". That's what I'm getting at. The first part, I'd think Ken might even appreciate. The second part, I could understand his distaste for.
On the other hand, If I misread the tone of the thread, I apologize.
Did anyone slam Greg Curbow (God rest his soul) when they had a problem with a Cort Curbow? How about if someone has a problem with a Cort Elrick, do players call Rob Elrick and give him an earful because he designed the bass? I play a Washburn Status (and I love it) but I would not give Status Graphite an earful if I ever had problems with it. I totally sympathize with anyone that has any problems with their basses but the level of vitriol in these threads does not match the circumstances. If anyone here doesn't like Ken Smith's approach then don't buy his basses. Making smartass comments then self righteously slamming Ken when he chimes in to protest is nauseating.
Planet Boulder
Hey, this is a private residence...man
- Nov 10, 2001
- 4,014
- 65
- Disclosures
- I once had impure thoughts. Oh, and I pluck my ear hair.
You're right - I misread his quote on the original thread. He has offered to have it removed from the website.
I still maintain that it's past time to give this (the criticizing of Ken Smith, not the attempts at resolving the actual issue with the vendor) a rest. He's "repeatedly" made his case on this board, yet some still want to continue with the same tired arguments.
When I got married, my lovely bride and I registered at Target (we're not very high on the "hoity toity" scale). One of the gifts we received was a Michael Graves designed electric can opener. A few years back, it stopped working for all but tiny little cans, so it got tucked away until I could figure out what to do about it. After reading this thread, I now know what I'm gonna do about it... I'm gonna find this Michael Graves dude on the net, and give him relentless what-fors in some dark corner of cyberspace. That'll learn the varmint.
Hoo-ah!
Hoo-ah!
Hey - if somebody's looking to buy a KSD Proto J 6 with the trademark headstock, mine's for sale here on the TB forums (with over 6000 views and at least 20 PMs). I just don't dig the 35 scale.
That said, here's some rebuttal to the poor quality/poor customer service - Ken Smith makes an excellent product; Brooklyn Gear have been forthright in their dealings. Folks, it's called CHINA, KOREA and JAPAN.
When Americans want quality, and then refuse to pay higher prices for it so they buy foreign, that amounts to talking out of both sides of your mouth. Pay for the American-made quality, or take your chances with shipping delays and inferior product quality, etc. It's like the environmentalists that don't want us to use oil or coal to generate our electricity, but also don't want us to use nuclear due to its volatility or windmills because they'll shred birds and are eyesores, or solar farms because then nothing will grow on the land, or hydro because it causes the salmon to die off, then bears will have nothing to eat.
Um....pick a side, choose, and live with the consequenses of your actions. That's called being a responsible adult. As for making instruments in China now, just remember that they're buying the oil and making our gas prices skyrocket (and they probably made the computer you're reading this on....)
Z
Your point is well-taken. The only problem I have with it is that Dan Erlewine is highly-respected for his excellent skills. Unfortunately, not everybody shares Dan's abilities.
No offense, but you make it sound like grinding the sides of an allen key is a highly technical skill requiring years of instrument repair experience. Anybody could do this. Not that they should have to, of course, but it's not that big of a deal at all.
I don't know where to start. It all started with a player trying to get a truss rod from me.
Quick Couple of Points
1. I do care about the player. You think I find joy in knowing that I am unable to get parts for players. I get real satisfaction in being able to make a great product at a great price that players at all levels want to play.
2. We have sold thousands of these basses worldwide. We get calls everyday from dealers and players looking for product.
3. BG made the decision not to work with the old factory anymore for I could not trust their quality nor parts supply. I would not manufacture any more instruments designed by Ken Smith not manufactured by Ken Smith and sell them if I could not trust the quality. Ken was sitting next to me discussing future designs at NAMM as I pleaded and demanded for the old factory to charge me more money to do better quality control before shipping out instruments. The few dollars more per instrument would save me the problems we have today. If you are a fan of Ken Smith Basses you know the quality in his basses and it is something BG continues to strive for with the KSD line.
4. It is my biased opinion that the KSD Bass Line overall is the best value on the market for less than $1500. Our 6 string retails at $1200.
Going Forward
1. Some of the points brought up in this thread is good feedback to me. I never claim to have all the answers and this forum does give me real feedback not just from dealers but you the players. I have spoken with Ken Smith and starting with the next production run....Brooklyn Gear's name will be added to the Headstock. This will hopefully clarify the relationship of Ken Smith with the KSD line and who the actual manufacturer is.
2. I have been delaying modifying the website as I have been planning to do a major overhaul instead. My original web designer to put it politely flaked on me and has all of my passwords, access information etc...We will be editing it though very soon and replacing Ken Smith Basses to KSD etc....
3. If you are the original buyer of a KSD and have the receipt as proof and you need a truss rod and are able to find one online....email me directly at [email protected] and I will buy it for you.
4. We are not running away from the problems. Earlier in this thread I even posted my email and cell phone number. Unfortunately no Playboy Bunnies called We are directly addressing the problems and trying to fix them.
Adam
Brooklyn Gear
Quick Couple of Points
1. I do care about the player. You think I find joy in knowing that I am unable to get parts for players. I get real satisfaction in being able to make a great product at a great price that players at all levels want to play.
2. We have sold thousands of these basses worldwide. We get calls everyday from dealers and players looking for product.
3. BG made the decision not to work with the old factory anymore for I could not trust their quality nor parts supply. I would not manufacture any more instruments designed by Ken Smith not manufactured by Ken Smith and sell them if I could not trust the quality. Ken was sitting next to me discussing future designs at NAMM as I pleaded and demanded for the old factory to charge me more money to do better quality control before shipping out instruments. The few dollars more per instrument would save me the problems we have today. If you are a fan of Ken Smith Basses you know the quality in his basses and it is something BG continues to strive for with the KSD line.
4. It is my biased opinion that the KSD Bass Line overall is the best value on the market for less than $1500. Our 6 string retails at $1200.
Going Forward
1. Some of the points brought up in this thread is good feedback to me. I never claim to have all the answers and this forum does give me real feedback not just from dealers but you the players. I have spoken with Ken Smith and starting with the next production run....Brooklyn Gear's name will be added to the Headstock. This will hopefully clarify the relationship of Ken Smith with the KSD line and who the actual manufacturer is.
2. I have been delaying modifying the website as I have been planning to do a major overhaul instead. My original web designer to put it politely flaked on me and has all of my passwords, access information etc...We will be editing it though very soon and replacing Ken Smith Basses to KSD etc....
3. If you are the original buyer of a KSD and have the receipt as proof and you need a truss rod and are able to find one online....email me directly at [email protected] and I will buy it for you.
4. We are not running away from the problems. Earlier in this thread I even posted my email and cell phone number. Unfortunately no Playboy Bunnies called
We are directly addressing the problems and trying to fix them. Adam
Brooklyn Gear
- Status
