Last gig with an amp!

[s0c9]

I am 69, have been playing bass (along with a few other instruments) for more than 55 years and I hope to never go the IEM route. I tried to do it at my church and it ended my gigging there. I lug two 4-10 cabs along with everything else needed to gigs and rehearsals. I might downsize my rig to one of my combo's on occasion but IEM's take far too much control away from me after spending too many years and far too much money buying the gear I need to create the sound I want. Leaving that to the FOH person seems iffy at best... but if it works for you... all the better!

Most bands I work with (Festivals and corp FOH gigs) and the 4 I sub with have self-contained IEM systems that can patch to or from the House system.
No monitor mixes are left to FOH. Totally Makes FOH job easier.
See my post above - https://www.talkbass.com/threads/last-gig-with-an-amp.1642074/page-3#post-28240087

 

[-Stingray]

IEMS: It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

When we tried silent stage and IEMS everyone in the band hated not being able to "feel" the music. The guitarist also hated not having any controlled feedback. So we decided to use IEMS with our amps, and as long as everyone keeps the amp volumes relatively sane, it works really REALLY well.

 

[bstringrandy]

It’s been really interesting reading the replies to this post! As expected, lots of different opinions. It all depends on your individual situations. We started with a Mackie mixer, a roll around rack with 3 power amps and power conditioners, passive 18” subs, passive mains with dual or single 15s with horns and wedge monitors. We then went to a Behringer X32 Compact digital mixer. Spent a ton of time setting up each channel for optimum FOH sound. Drummer went to IEM wired to a P16 personal mixer. I had a Shure PSM300 wireless rack mounted with the PA. Guitarist uses an xLive IEM. Vocalist still used a wedge. PA rack weighed a ton! We then ditched the passive speakers for the LD line array system. Next, we ditched the x32 and amp rack for a XR18 in a rack with an amp for vocalist and power conditioner. I took the PSM300 and put it in a rack bag with a Furmon strip.

We downloaded the latest scene from the X32 into the XR18 as a starting point. From there it was some minor tweaks to each channel to allow for the increased sensitivity and frequency response of the new system. All dialed in now. The person out from running our FOH mix on the tablet mainly just sets levels for the room then minor adjustments as we’re playing. One point I’ll make is that since the IEM mix for each individual is independent of the FOH mix, it’s absolutely imperative that you be able to trust the person running the FOH mix. That said, it’s been a good experience for me so far. Our front man is still running a wedge so he gets the audience interaction and feedback. I find it easier to lock in since I hear everything so much clearer now.

As expected, it’s not for everybody, but if you commit to it and devote the time and $$ into the learning, setup, operation, and gear, it can offer rewards.

 

[s0c9]

Our front man is still running a wedge so he gets the audience interaction and feedback.

The Band I played (subbed) with (1st time) last Sat had NO WEDGES on stage. We used amps, were all IEM and the singer mounted an SM57 on his mic stand pointing to the audience for feedback.
I had that channel muted in my mix.. but he didn't. Worked for him !!
I have 2 more gigs with that band in 2 weeks. Will be same setup!

Band I'm subbing with this Fri night is also ALL IEM, but no SM57 for singer.


Whatever works! Audience doesn't care!

 

[pepj]

I date from an era when the backline was the FOH, a PA was only used for vocals, and monitors (if you had any) were wedges in front of mic stands and restricted mainly to the vocal mix.

Despite all the obvious drawbacks and pitfalls it was still possible to get a good house mix with that setup. However, the art of EQing and balancing a backline for that purpose is pretty much a lost art. And having lived through many gigs with the limitations and frustrations with such setups I’m not the least bit sorry to see it fade into the past.

When I’ve been asked how was it possible I tell them you had to know your gear inside out. And your band had to rehearse like crazy until everyone in the band knew exactly what everyone else in the band was doing - and might be going to do - for every single song without necessarily being able to hear every nuance and note. Of course we now live in an era where some people pride themselves on how little they rehearse so the second part of of my reply often falls on deaf ears.

I’ve done a total of three gigs on the so-called silent stage with IEMs. It felt a little weird at first. But I got used to it pretty quickly once I realized it’s not much different than recording with a set of cans on your ears. By the third time I did it the benefits were obvious. And I even started to like it.

But once you make the switch uou aldo need to add another member to your band. Because the FOH console jockey is the key to the kingdom and just as critical to your sound as any singer or instrument. I’ve seen a lot of bands with some amazing FOH systems try to either run their boards on the “set and forget” basis or control it remotely via a tablet. And with one rare exception it didn’t seem to work out too well for most of them.

By the same token your sound person needs to be sane, sober, and focused throughout your show. Last thing you need running sound is your BL’s slacker brother in law who’s half buzzed by the end of soundcheck and can’t keep his eyes off the well proportioned young single mom hanging out by the bar.

I personally think the new direction for stage sound is a major improvement over a floor full of amps. I don’t mind being able to hear everything for a change when I’m playing live. And I never once enjoyed having to haul a few hundred pounds of gear around just to play bass. But maybe that’s just me.

We self mix and run vox P.A only most of the time.
When we have to upscale, the choice is monitored.

All my recordings sound very good balance wise so either we do it ok or the recorder is very very forgiving.
We arent green though and all the regular guys we use can do this. We wouldn't use them otherwise.
Everyone has their sound together.
I dont get my ears hammered in these bands either.

One of the benefits is that my load in is 4 carries inc lights if required
If you add bins you have bigger cabs to factor in and they need loading initially.
Not against ears at all but you need a pro crew out front and depending on budget, that is no way a given, so for me, i make sure I can deal with my end and I'm not at the mercy of anyone.
We may encounter the odd difficult room but really thats just common sense too.

 

[40Hz]

Not against ears at all but you need a pro crew out front and depending on budget, that is no way a given, so for me, i make sure I can deal with my end and I'm not at the mercy of anyone.

A full pro crew out in front has been outside the budget of every band I’ve ever been in. But there are capable people who can handle the house mix and aren’t in the national or regional touring league. They can be brought onboard to run the console at an affordable cost. I’ve have no with issue handling everything yourself. I’ve done it more often than not out of sheer necessity. But I’d rather see me and my bandmates concentrating on the music and bringing the show rather than attending to all the ancillary and technical details that go along with it. So I still prefer having my own sound guy or gal if at all possible despite me being perfectly able to do it myself. It’s just a matter of better efficiency and focus for me.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

I have a Two Notes Cab M.
Have gone direct also straight into the board. IEM was not in the cards often

my Big Rig:

And my small rig not pictured
Mesa WD800 into a Phil Jones C8.

I can hang with IEMs , But I like the push of a live rig

now that I don’t own, run, and setup the PA.. the loadin for even the big rig is gravy

 

[drpepper]

Some might disagree, okay, all might disagree , but the way I see it, pretty much any forum discussion can use a car analogy.

Cars are a good way of transporting small groups of people, but if every person in a particular group is blind, they're not going to get very far as the only ones traveling in that car. And it's beyond obvious that the only solutions are to have at least one sighted person who can drive involved OR to not use the car.

For that group of blind people to complain about not being able to use a car without crashing then blame the car doesn't make much sense. Worse would be to constantly pop off in any talk of using a car and saying things like "Cars are no silver bullet!", "Grumble, grumble, used a car once, never again!" and "If you think you can get around in a car, you're in for a lot of potential pain!"

The car isn't the problem...the problem for that group is no one being able to drive.

So, I'm not I'm understanding where a lot of the back and forth here is coming from. Bands' situations differ. Some players are in situations where sound is always run from the stage, some players are in situations where sound is always run out front whether one dedicated person or a crew, and there are situations with every possible variation in between. I'd think that people with these varying situations should be able to discuss using IEMs with everyone having at least some awareness that theirs isn't the only or necessarily the prevalent circumstance, and that there are obvious facts about IEMs and running foh sound...to the degree that they almost go without saying.

I can see where hype surrounding IEMs, might lead some here and there who run sound from the stage to get caught up in it and jump in with both feet without thinking things through. But that'd be an error calling for a facepalm and would be a lesson learned, not become an ongoing issue.

 

[bstringrandy]

Some might disagree, okay, all might disagree , but the way I see it, pretty much any forum discussion can use a car analogy.

Cars are a good way of transporting small groups of people, but if every person in a particular group is blind, they're not going to get very far as the only ones traveling in that car. And it's beyond obvious that the only solutions are to have at least one sighted person who can drive involved OR to not use the car.

For that group of blind people to complain about not being able to use a car without crashing then blame the car doesn't make much sense. Worse would be to constantly pop off in any talk of using a car and saying things like "Cars are no silver bullet!", "Grumble, grumble, used a car once, never again!" and "If you think you can get around in a car, you're in for a lot of potential pain!"

The car isn't the problem...the problem for that group is no one being able to drive.

So, I'm not I'm understanding where a lot of the back and forth here is coming from. Bands' situations differ. Some players are in situations where sound is always run from the stage, some players are in situations where sound is always run out front whether one dedicated person or a crew, and there are situations with every possible variation in between. I'd think that people with these varying situations should be able to discuss using IEMs with everyone having at least some awareness that theirs isn't the only or necessarily the prevalent circumstance, and that there are obvious facts about IEMs and running foh sound...to the degree that they almost go without saying.

I can see where hype surrounding IEMs, might lead some here and there who run sound from the stage get caught up in it and jump in with both feet without thinking things through. But that'd be an error calling for a facepalm and would be a lesson learned, not become an ongoing issue.

Well said!! As I mentioned above, it has been quite interesting to read the different viewpoints and their justifications. I’ll stand by my last post that in my opinion, IEMs CAN offer rewards if the investment is made to properly implement them. They don’t fit every circumstance and I can appreciate that.

 

[s0c9]

I can see where hype surrounding IEMs, might lead some here and there who run sound from the stage get caught up in it and jump in with both feet without thinking things through. But that'd be an error calling for a facepalm and would be a lesson learned, not become an ongoing issue.

The same can be said for going wireless... bass and/or IEM.
So many folks condemn it for a variety of reasons - it doesn't sound as good as wired, or there's artifacts and interference.. mostly derived from being unaware of which frequency band/models are best for the area in which they are operating.
Don't like it. Blame the wireless. YMMV

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Some might disagree, okay, all might disagree , but the way I see it, pretty much any forum discussion can use a car analogy.

Cars are a good way of transporting small groups of people, but if every person in a particular group is blind, they're not going to get very far as the only ones traveling in that car. And it's beyond obvious that the only solutions are to have at least one sighted person who can drive involved OR to not use the car.

For that group of blind people to complain about not being able to use a car without crashing then blame the car doesn't make much sense. Worse would be to constantly pop off in any talk of using a car and saying things like "Cars are no silver bullet!", "Grumble, grumble, used a car once, never again!" and "If you think you can get around in a car, you're in for a lot of potential pain!"

The car isn't the problem...the problem for that group is no one being able to drive.

So, I'm not I'm understanding where a lot of the back and forth here is coming from. Bands' situations differ. Some players are in situations where sound is always run from the stage, some players are in situations where sound is always run out front whether one dedicated person or a crew, and there are situations with every possible variation in between. I'd think that people with these varying situations should be able to discuss using IEMs with everyone having at least some awareness that theirs isn't the only or necessarily the prevalent circumstance, and that there are obvious facts about IEMs and running foh sound...to the degree that they almost go without saying.

I can see where hype surrounding IEMs, might lead some here and there who run sound from the stage to get caught up in it and jump in with both feet without thinking things through. But that'd be an error calling for a facepalm and would be a lesson learned, not become an ongoing issue.

Running the sound from the stage (me) was the full stop in my situation (s) that and acoustic drums. Plus old farts set in their ways.
I conceded because they could not manage their own mix for a foldback monitor, much less an in-ear mix. Heck, I used to manage their amp settings onstage!! lol, we’ll see what the next band brings to the table!

I will not run the sound

 

[MrLenny1]

WOW, what a beautiful collection.

 

[retslock]

Tell me about it. While I’m still using an amp for gigs, I have Nikon and Pentax 35mm cameras built to last longer than me and several lenses now sitting in a cupboard unused for years. I can’t bear to dispose of them.

 

[DJWhitJr]

My band is completely ampless and I love it. The drummer even plays an e-kit. My mix is dialed in just like I want it and rarely do I ever have to adjust it. We have a friend who helps run FOH and I'm wireless so I can walk out into the crowd or over to him to hear the FOH mix when it suits me. Opinions will vary but I don't ever see playing through an amp again.

 

[BassGuyFL]

A lot of people who aren’t fans of IEM’s have had a bad experience. You can’t just show up to a gig, jam them in your ears and hope some sound man gives you an acceptable mix. It takes some homework and listening on your own, some decent equipment which can be expensive and a way to control your own mixes.

 

[s0c9]

A lot of people who aren’t fans of IEM’s have had a bad experience. You can’t just show up to a gig, jam them in your ears and hope some sound man gives you an acceptable mix. It takes some homework and listening on your own, some decent equipment which can be expensive and a way to control your own mixes.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^ X 1000%

I've seen that happen too many times... even in my own band.
I was able to move to IEM's as I practiced at home with headphones (for years) - due to kids !!
It STILL wasn't an "easy" move switching from guitar to bass and adjusting my IEM's to suit.
It takes time, practice and experience to get it right.
Still ...SH*T happens..
Last Fri night, when starting a song everything in my IEM's got bumped up ~100%
I realized I had [accidentally] bumped the receiver volume knob up full while retrieving a pick from my pocket - cuz I forgot to take them out earlier.
I usually don't use a pick, and IEM receiver is hooked onto left jeans pocket to keep it away from bass transmitter located on back of my strap!
I keep my IEM volume pretty low.

 

[Nek07]

I dont like IEMs just because of the feel, I dont like anything in my ear.

 

[Bonecat]

My band has been ampless and IEM for the last several years. There’s definitely a learning curve involved and some folks find that difficult. Our lead singer found it particularly tough. She’s always depended on hearing the FOH sound in the room as a reference and the perceived isolation was hard for her. The fix for her was understanding how to mix her IEM feed. She’s not technologically adept, so there was period of trial and error. Now we all love it. Clean stage, each of us hears what we need to, we play better, and we go home with no ringing in our ears. Ears - You only get two…

Strongly agree what others have said about the FOH disconnect. A careful sound check is always your friend.

 

[erayser]

I get the reasons why those who don't want to go to IEM's. I went through it myself... with bandmates... including FOH sound guys. Early on... it wasn't a good experience, but we were all persistent in learning to try to make it better. My ampless and IEM journey has evolved a lot... and it wasn't cheap. I'm just glad I didn't give up on it when I wasn't fully onboard with it. I've invested a lot for almost a decade trying to make my personal mix sound and feel like it is today. Playing in other bands with a backline doesn't even compare to when I'm using IEM's. Stage sound is unbalanced, loud, and no way to control volume of others on stage. I love that I have control of what I want to hear in my personal mix in my IEM's. I can balance my mix, and feel like I'm playing loud, but at lower volumes... protecting my hearing. I'm fully wireless... so I can walk out to listen to FOH... and I can talk to the sound guys in the back during our sound checks, and run throughs. Sometimes I feel I'm too loud when they sound check my bass... but it's balanced in the mix. My personal mix volume through my IEM's is actually lower than what audience hears through FOH. Wish I had that control when going to venues watching shows.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Wish I had that control when going to venues watching shows.

I had thought about this the last time I went to a Silent Disco. For those uninitiated, dancers wear headphones and DJ mixes but it's sent wirelessly to the dancer's headphones. You see people dancing but her nothing but feet stomping around...



Anyway, I had thought about running a venue like that, all IEM, both for the band and the audience. Or No PA as we know it, IEM for the band, a Bluetooth speaker for every table with what would be the PA feed. Turn it up or down as needed

Huh?