Brandt Scanlan said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one ;-) I keep getting a mental picture of a farmer tilling his field and digging up a golden bass...
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Double Bass LDS's New 1x8 3 way Speaker Cabinet - Initial Impressions
- Thread starter macmrkt
- Start date
I'm glad I'm not the only one ;-) I keep getting a mental picture of a farmer tilling his field and digging up a golden bass...
I have a hunch that the LDS 1x8 and AI's Clarus/Focus are a great match. Don says that's what he uses to test his cabinets. The more I try AI versus other heads, the more I realize that their 'warmth' and very flat low end makes them a great match with LDS.
Well, so far, so good. I am playing a 7/8 carved Gabute, with Jazzer E&A, Eudoxa D, and Oliv G --> Realist/AMT --->Focus. The cab is definately making a good impression. Like macmrkt wrote, the clarity is excellent. I attribute this to the midrange driver, as well as the neo woofer having prominent mids. It is also very tight, controlled and WARM in the low end. In this regard it reminds me of the Pub. The highs are there if I want, or I can dial them out. I find it to be tonally very different than the vl-208. The 208 sounds much darker. I am using a Realist, which may be a factor. I would guess a Full Circle or some other pickup might be a better match for the 208. To take the comparison a step further, I think 2 LDS 1x8s would not sound at all like the VL-208.
There is a small problem, which I have to ask Don about. As the volume starts to rise into what I would consider medium range, I get a very rapid flitting or soft distortion on the low notes (E through G). It sounds like it's going through a phase shifter, or when you're tuning in between AM radio stations and the static swoops in and out. It is very slight, only noticeable when I play alone, and sort of separate from the note itself. I can diminish it by adjusting the low cut filter, but I wonder about this. Could it be:
1. The speaker needs to break in
2. Too many watts from the Focus? Arter all it's the low notes that carry all those watts.
3. It's a piezo thing
4. something else
Anyway the sound is very much to my liking, after 1 gig and the living room sessions. I will post more after the weekend gigs and talking with Don.
There is a small problem, which I have to ask Don about. As the volume starts to rise into what I would consider medium range, I get a very rapid flitting or soft distortion on the low notes (E through G). It sounds like it's going through a phase shifter, or when you're tuning in between AM radio stations and the static swoops in and out. It is very slight, only noticeable when I play alone, and sort of separate from the note itself. I can diminish it by adjusting the low cut filter, but I wonder about this. Could it be:
1. The speaker needs to break in
2. Too many watts from the Focus? Arter all it's the low notes that carry all those watts.
3. It's a piezo thing
4. something else
Anyway the sound is very much to my liking, after 1 gig and the living room sessions. I will post more after the weekend gigs and talking with Don.
LDS-Bal said:
Given what you've mentioned so far, I think you're dealing with "PUB Syndrome". You know that thick, gooey low end the PUB has? I think it's because of the frequency response of the 8" driver, almost as if the speaker is "trying" to hear frequencies it can't produce, but still wants to anyway. When I had it, my PUB made exactly this "puffy" or "flitting" sound at first, and until I dealt with it, it severely limited the amount of volume I could get out of the speaker. The key was to apply a variable hi pass filter to the signal. You can use the one on your Focus, but it's not quite as variable as what you might find on something like the EQ3B or a dedicated EQ, and might cause you to shape your sound too much to the speaker. I've actually thought about paying Gary Falk to design me the smallest possible hi-pass filter that I could carry with me just in case I wanted to insert it in the chain, but with the VL series cabs (just got my second VL 108 as well), I don't seem to need it.
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,518
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- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
T-Bal said:
I wonder if Don could fix this via a port change? If you tuned the box a little differently, that might take care of it.
Tom.
How is it not as variable? When I turn the high pass on the Focus all the way up, there is almost no signal left!Chris Fitzgerald said:
B@$+ARD!Chris Fitzgerald said:
Yesterday, I ran the VL110 versus the LDS1x8, with my Schnitzer/DeSola carved + BassMaster Pro, using a Clarus SL. It was in a rehearsal with my jazz trio. I found the LDS and the VL110 to be remarkably similar in sound. The LDS maybe gets a bit more of the wood sound. The VL110 definately has more power on the 'A' and 'E' strings. I'd be very happy with either.
Sorry for the digression, but after hearing how the VL208 may be a tad heavy to carry...the VL208 weighs 44lbs and the VL110 is 40lbs, both checked on a medical scale. With the handles of the VL208 and it's narrow depth, it's fairly easy to carry and feels lighter than the VL110. More kudos for the 208...
Back to the thread...I've often wanted to post my thoughts on that low E string fuzzy distortion. I've gotten it on almost EVERY bass cabinet I've had, if I listen closely and the situation is right. That's with swapping bass heads, and both on BG and DB. That includes big motha's like stacked Eden 210XST's driven by the most powerful Eden amps, all the way to the VL208...you name it. This is how it occurs - it depends on how hard you hit the string, if the room is quiet enough for you to notice, if you are standing close to the speaker, when you are in small practice size rooms (100 to 200 square feet) or when playing towards a nearby wall. I don't hear it in larger rooms or when I'm playing with others. At first, I thought it was a defective cabinet, but since it occurs on almost everything I've played through, I assume it's some sort of interactive problem. I'm not ruling out that it may be generating as distortion in the amplifier. It never comes out when sending the preamp signal to a board for recording, so it's either power amp of speaker. Could it be some power drain caused by trying to stuff a 40'+ long wave in a 10' space? Or could it be I just don't think about it when I'm in a group setting? I don't know but I don't worry about it anymore.
Sorry for the digression, but after hearing how the VL208 may be a tad heavy to carry...the VL208 weighs 44lbs and the VL110 is 40lbs, both checked on a medical scale. With the handles of the VL208 and it's narrow depth, it's fairly easy to carry and feels lighter than the VL110. More kudos for the 208...
Back to the thread...I've often wanted to post my thoughts on that low E string fuzzy distortion. I've gotten it on almost EVERY bass cabinet I've had, if I listen closely and the situation is right. That's with swapping bass heads, and both on BG and DB. That includes big motha's like stacked Eden 210XST's driven by the most powerful Eden amps, all the way to the VL208...you name it. This is how it occurs - it depends on how hard you hit the string, if the room is quiet enough for you to notice, if you are standing close to the speaker, when you are in small practice size rooms (100 to 200 square feet) or when playing towards a nearby wall. I don't hear it in larger rooms or when I'm playing with others. At first, I thought it was a defective cabinet, but since it occurs on almost everything I've played through, I assume it's some sort of interactive problem. I'm not ruling out that it may be generating as distortion in the amplifier. It never comes out when sending the preamp signal to a board for recording, so it's either power amp of speaker. Could it be some power drain caused by trying to stuff a 40'+ long wave in a 10' space? Or could it be I just don't think about it when I'm in a group setting? I don't know but I don't worry about it anymore.
The LDS "problem" is different from the Pub. This more like phase-shifted fuzz than flitting. Keep in mind that it's VERY minor, and really only evident when playing alone at slightly higher levels.Chris Fitzgerald said:
EQ-***? said:
It's not variable in that it's a rolloff, and that the rate of rolloff is preset. With a notch filter, you can set the width of the cut, the center frequency, and the amount of cut. Don't get me wrong - the hi pass on the Focus does a great job, you just can't get too surgical with it. At any rate, from the sound of your last post, we're not talking about the same issue as with the PUB anyway.
B@$+ARD!
Yeah, I know...I suck.
Thanks for your input on the fuzz thing. Back to the digression, do you agree that the 208 sounds very dark in comparison to the LDS? I just remembered the guy who sold me the 208 had updated drivers from EA put in there. He also gave me the origainals, which are supposedly fully functional. I wonder if they sound different. Tom?macmrkt said:
With this in mind maybe I'll try the filter in notch mode, even though the only variable is the center frequency.Chris Fitzgerald said:
Just heard about NHOP's passing. They are doing a tribute on my favorite jazz station, KCSM (www.kcsm.org for on-line listening)...so I'm a bit distracted...
I did an initial impression write up on the VL208/VL110 over in:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167345&page=3&pp=20
Since I find the VL110 and the LDS to be tonally very similar, I can extrapolate that yes, the VL208 is a darker sounding cabinet than the 110 or the LDS. And I think that's part of its appeal. I believe that DB's are pleasingly dark sounding, and the 208 captures this.
I did an initial impression write up on the VL208/VL110 over in:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167345&page=3&pp=20
Since I find the VL110 and the LDS to be tonally very similar, I can extrapolate that yes, the VL208 is a darker sounding cabinet than the 110 or the LDS. And I think that's part of its appeal. I believe that DB's are pleasingly dark sounding, and the 208 captures this.
tombowlus said:
That's right on the money Tom. It sounds like what I call "port chuffing". This can be fixed with a larger (and thereby longer) port. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if there is room for a longer port in there.
Ralf
Thanks for the reply, Ralf. I don't know if you are familiar with my order, but I had Don make the box 12.5" deep as opposed to the normal 14". Did this have some effect on the port size/length? Are you saying that the sound itself is coming out of the port, or that the port size affects the way the speaker behaves?rpatter said:
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,518
- 19,954
- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
T-Bal said:
To the best of my knowledge, EA never updated the 8" drivers. The 10's went through 3 or 4 iterations, but I have never heard of any update to the 8's. I did not get a chance to hear the LDS 1x8, but having heard some of their 2x8's using the neo driver, I makes sense to say that the VL-208 would sound darker. It certainly has more lows and low mids, and should be smoother across the full midrange. By contrast, I could see where the LDS neo 1x8 might sound more woody. FWIW, the same can be said for the VL-108 versus the VL-208. Even using two VL-108's, the VL-208 sounds more full, deep, and smooth, whereas one or two VL-108's come across as more articulate and precise, and not as rich sounding.
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,518
- 19,954
- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
macmrkt said:
And I heard it first from you!
What a shame, and he was only 58. Salute, to the Great Dane! He will be sorely missed...
rpatter said:
Sounds very possible. Since the velocity of the air in a port for a given tuning increases as the port's area decreases, if the air's velocity is high enough, it can become very audible. Often called port chuffing, as you said. Unfortunately this is a common problem with smaller boxes.
-bob
T-Bal said:
If it's port chuffing then it is, as Rob said, due to the fact that the area of the port is too small for the velocity of the air moving through it. Don had this problem once before with a 3x8 cab. It only showed up when the cabinet was pushed. I think the solution in your case would be to add another port the same diameter as the one that is currently in the box or to put in a larger port. The problem with either solution is that the ports (or port) would have to be significantly longer than the one in there now. If the box is only 12-1/2" deep, the ports will most likely have to have a 90 degree bend. Depending on where the port is and the internal layout of the box, it could be a real pain. Give Don a call, I'm sure he can come up with something.
Ralf
It's interesting to note that, since port placement is not critical (well at least some people don't think so), the port can also be located on the back or on the side of the box. This is what Andy Lewis of Acme Sound has done with the Acme Low B-1 cabinet. There is a sufficiently large diameter port on the side of the box. It looks kind of odd at first, but seems to work just fine. Some transmission line designs also terminate into openings on the side or back.
I have seen some experimental attempts at adding a little resistance in the port have some success. This could be in the form of some very light-density Dacron poly-fill. The idea is to slow down the velocity of the air in the port a bit. Not really a substitute for a properly designed vent though.
-bob
I have seen some experimental attempts at adding a little resistance in the port have some success. This could be in the form of some very light-density Dacron poly-fill. The idea is to slow down the velocity of the air in the port a bit. Not really a substitute for a properly designed vent though.
-bob
