Learning notes on fretboard: B#, Cb, E# and Fb?!

[bfields]

For many situations I fully agree with you. I also do not recall many places where I had to read double sharps or flats in bass music, although if you look at the classical literature as a whole, e.g. at piano works by many composers (e.g. Chopin, Liszt, Debussy,...) you'll find them frequently.

Yeah, I mean, go download the Well-Tempered Clavier, or Chopin's Preludes, which both run through all keys, and you'll find plenty of examples. E.g., I'm looking at a copy of the 3rd prelude from the Well-Tempered Clavier. It's written in C#, so there's an E# and a B# in the key signature, and plenty of double sharps sprinkled throughout.

Surely bassists in pit orchestras, for example, must have to know how to sight-read well in those keys.

 

[TNCreature]

Of you are learning to read, this is based on what key you are playing in.

Here is an illegal shortcut that I will get trashed for:
If you are learning to play without reading, or just rocking out, just realize they are the same pitch and don't worry too much about it.
In the long run, learning properly will make this much easier in the future, and you will fly through these changes. A strong base in miusic theory, even if you are not reading, will also help you through these instances.
The language of music is awesome if you are working with others. It saves a lot of time I take long run.

 

[bfields]

E.g., I'm looking at a copy of the 3rd prelude from the Well-Tempered Clavier. It's written in C#, so there's an E# and a B# in the key signature, and plenty of double sharps sprinkled throughout.

(Hah, oops, I just noticed that @Papageno already gave exactly that example.)

 

[Paul New]

If you put some effort into learning to read written parts, soon the fretboard will be all yours.

 

[drumvsbass]

Music didn't name the notes, we did.

 

[Papageno]

Music didn't name the notes, we did.

Sure, but using names (in particular using the proper names) is useful for communication among musicians about music.

 

[sonojono]

I use to get annoyed whenever I’d read a Jazz chart and spot a C flat and at the time when I was still learning, my brain would fart while the director would look at me like if I came in to the rehearsal stoned

 

[HolmeBass]

Moving on from my post (#17) above, now consider E Major - 4 sharps:
View attachment 4296288

Now consider the relative minor of E major, which is C# minor. See how the leading tone is now B#:
View attachment 4296289

So C# minor is always considered to be Harmonic Minor, not Natural Minor, and the leading tone is always marked as an accidental rather than in the key signature?

Handling notation and key signatures for minor keys is still something I am not sure of at all, especially when to use Harmonic minor instead of Natural Minor.

 

[HolmeBass]

There is no such thing as E#, Fb or B#, Cb. You simply say E or B. E and B have no sharp, just a flat. Eb, Bb.

Unfortunately this just is not the case.

 

[Thundertips]

Unfortunately this just is not the case.

Yes. I know that now. Thanks for the info. I was just reffering as to how I would say it.

 

[HolmeBass]

The important thing to remember is that it doesn't matter. People who use sharps in their notation are loco bananas.

But most of our favorite keys are sharp keys: G, D, A, E. Frankly been on an Eb minor thing working on Stevie Wonder funk songs, and Eb minor is the relative minor of Gb, and the key signatures are heavy duty.

 

[RyanSaranich]

Let's start with the major scale. Call it up, notice how notes like B# are not used. Why not? The old guys figured this out a long time ago. Has to do with the black notes on the piano that have two names for the same sound, and how we are to name them. Long story. The guys will help.

Happy trails.

I have to disagree. Look at the key signature for C# major/A# minor (7 sharps).

 

[HolmeBass]

Yes. I know that now. Thanks for the info. I was just reffering as to how I would say it.

I find I encounter these issues in written music. Just talking with my buds about chord changes in rock, country, and funk tunes it thankfully does not come up.

I do get a little tweaked when someone interchanges sharp and flat accidentals liberally in their discussion of a tune, but I push on and deal, lol!

 

[drumvsbass]

Sure, but using names (in particular using the proper names) is useful for communication among musicians about music.

As long as it is the accepted European system. Then what?

 

[40Hz]

First, G# is not a key.

It’s not a key according to standard conventions. But that’s the only “real” reason it isn’t.

 

[SteveCS]

So C# minor is always considered to be Harmonic Minor...

As a key, X Minor includes natural, melodic and harmonic minor scales.

...
...and the leading tone is always marked as an accidental rather than in the key signature?
...

Yes. If it is not the leading tone (which is always semitone below tonic) then it is just called 'subtonic' (whole-tone below tonic) and there is no accidental.

 

[lfmn16]

Sure, but using names (in particular using the proper names) is useful for communication among musicians about music.

As anyone who has ever had to work with someone that didn't know the notes on their instruments can attest.

I played with a guitarist that could play the Chuck Berry/Keith Richards thing as well as anyone. Early on he's trying to show me a song and I asked, "What key is it in?" He looked at me like I'd asked him to write out Einstein's theory of relativity, played a chord, pointed to his guitar and said, "This key." Trying to show him how to play something, or trying to get him to show you something was just painful.

 

[Paul New]

It’s not a key according to standard conventions. But that’s the only “real” reason it isn’t.

Unfortunately, I have seen music written in G#.

 

[groooooove]

I'm struggling to learn - REALLY LEARN - the notes on the fretboard, but B#, Cb, E# and Fb are driving me NUTS.

Yes, I know the following are the same pitch:

• B# and C
• B and Cb
• E# and F
• E and Fb

I know that pianos and fretted instruments are "equally tempered", and can never be perfectly in-tune in all keys.

I know that the reason for notes like E# and Cb has something to do with how music is notated in western music.

Still, this has always been a huge barrier for me in really KNOWING the notes on the fretboard.

Question: Does anyone have a diagram like this, that additionally accounts for the notes I mentioned above? [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

As an alternative, any suggestions to help with my getting smacked too many times with the "stupid stick"?

think of it as using correct grammar. while the notes are "the same" as you mention, for equal temperament, it's still incorrect to use them interchangeably with the other note name.

an example I think paints the picture clearly:

triads (three note chords) have a root, 3rd, and 5th. the 3rd is a 3rd because it is three letters away from the root. C major is C, E, G. (E is three letters more than C.) so, an Fb in this case is actually a flat fourth, rather than major 3rd.

in the case of B# for example, a G major chord is G, B, D. if that root is raised to G#, it's only local that the third is then B#, rather than calling it C, which would be incorrect under those circumstances.

I'm a stickler for this with my students and I tend to teach it thoroughly and early. For someone not working regularly with a teacher, i'd say don't fuss about it until it actually slows down the progression of your playing.

 

[Malcolm35]

I have to disagree. Look at the key signature for C# major/A# minor (7 sharps).

But, I never use C# or A# in the good ole boy dirt simple stuff I play. Why go that deep in answering the OP's question?