learning scale patterns

[MVE]

Ok, I think I understand. This seems SO much harder than it needs to be but if it works for you, cool!

If you use the first box pattern Malcolm posted for the Maj scale, you would need to start a dorian scale from your pinky and end with your index finger. This is a very different mental pattern than starting with your index. Learning MILLPAD, every mode always starts from your index finger.
You also learn where every scale note is instantly from wherever your index finger is. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.
For instance, if Im playing in A nat minor, and I land my index finger is on an E, I instantly know the Phrygian pattern will keep me in Am.

 

[StatesideRambler]

I’m glad I had a good grounding in modes before I began reading “explanations” here on TB.

 

[InhumanResource]

If you use the first box pattern Malcolm posted for the Maj scale, you would need to start a dorian scale from your pinky and end with your index finger. This is a very different mental pattern than starting with your index. Learning MILLPAD, every mode always starts from your index finger.
You also learn where every scale note is instantly from wherever your index finger is. That is what I was trying to say in my first post.
For instance, if Im playing in A nat minor, and I land my index finger is on an E, I instantly know the Phrygian pattern will keep me in Am.

But don’t we know all that anyway just from knowing our major scales? If I can play a major scale from octave to octave and it’s important to me to start on my index finger...I move my index finger to the first note of the desired mode and play it.

 

[MVE]

But don’t we know all that anyway just from knowing our major scales? If I can play a major scale from octave to octave and it’s important to me to start on my index finger...I move my index finger to the first note of the desired mode and play it.

That approach would be the exact opposite of utilizing a “box pattern”. As each mode would be a unique fingering pattern across the strings.
And, thats ok, but many people find a box pattern to be helpful.

 

[InhumanResource]

That approach would be the exact opposite of utilizing a “box pattern”. As each mode would be a unique fingering pattern across the strings.
And, thats ok, but many people find a box pattern to be helpful.

Yeah, I mean the sequence doesn't change from the "box" with the exception that it doesn't end on an octave like practicing your scale would. It simplifies things a ton of you have the major scale nailed all the way up and down the neck. Then you don't need boxes and acronyms, you just go to the note you want and you're in. This seems like kind of a crutch.

 

[consectaneus]

Help me understand. Ok, so I have a word that helps me memorize the names of the modes. Fair enough.

The intervals you listed don't spell out a scale. How do they fit in? Like, if I need to visualize a particular mode. Say phrygian.

Phrygian is iii. So I imagine the relative major scale, start on the third and play that. Done. Dorian is ii. So the same thing from the second scale degree. Mixolydian is V. Etc.

Obviously something is here because people "get" it but I'm at a loss.

Phrygian would be the sequence of intervals beginning on the fourth line, and when you get to the seventh line if you are going that direction, it starts again at the top. It's really all one master mode in a sense which you have already surmised. It just depends on where you start. What you describe works too. It's the same concept, just a different (and IMO) very effective approach to visualizing and internalizing it.

As I indicated before, the concept of starting on the third of the major scale to play a diatonic minor scale with a b2 and b6 didn't work well for me particularly in situations where I didn't have the whole major scale sitting there in one position under my fingers. I couldn't hear or see it well when I extended it up or down (or across depending on what the orientation is). Adding to the complication, hearing another mode after playing one sounded really wrong or odd. Like I have lost my aural equilibrium. It still happens, but even though I could swear a note sounds "out" I know it's correct because it fits the pattern.

I say if you or anyone doesn't need this system then more power to you. It just happens to work for me better than anything else I know, but I'm always open to a new approach. Love those light bulb moments.

 

[InhumanResource]

As I indicated before, the concept of starting on the third of the major scale to play a diatonic minor scale with a b2 and b6 didn't work well for me

So this is where I become intrigued and thanks for sharing how you mentally organize this.

Do you find value in thinking of it this way while playing? The way I approach it mentally is that I'm not thinking of the mode per se, I'm thinking of the major scale it is part of. So if I want to play phrygian, I'm playing in the relative key but being conscious that iii is "home", not I. So I'm not digesting the intervallic layout of the mode (though that is solid analysis), I only need to visualize or track the major scale as it exists up and down the neck and "pick" phrases that center around iii.

 

[IamGroot]

Somewhere on TB, I posted a few pages on scales and chords that pretty much explained it all. Even Malcom liked it. Of course, I cant find it now.

When you play any scale or mode, you should be always aware of the scale degree of each note as it is played. Great advice from my jazz instructor who is a sax player. If you follow this advice, the light will finally come on. When you go to learn other scale systems, this will make the task much easier. For example, the 6th mode of the Melodic minor, is the Aeolian b5, the 5th is the mixo b6.

 

[InhumanResource]

Somewhere on TB, I posted a few pages on scales and chords that pretty much explained it all. Even Malcom liked it. Of course, I cant find it now.

When you play any scale or mode, you should be always aware of the scale degree of each note as it is played. Great advice from my jazz instructor who is a sax player. If you follow this advice, the light will finally come on. When you go to learn other scale systems, this will make the task much easier. For example, the 6th mode of the Melodic minor, is the Aeolian b5, the 5th is the mixo b6.

This is the concept I am getting at but written much more concisely.

 

[consectaneus]

Thanks for posting this!! If you actually watch the video it's incredibly easy to understand. I've been wanting a system like this to just get the modes under my fingers. I can worry about really using them well after I get the muscle memory down.

Glad you found it helpful. I heard about it here from someone and I'm always happy to get a chance to pass it on. I personally think it's brilliant and get pretty enthusiastic about it!

 

[consectaneus]

So this is where I become intrigued and thanks for sharing how you mentally organize this.

Do you find value in thinking of it this way while playing? The way I approach it mentally is that I'm not thinking of the mode per se, I'm thinking of the major scale it is part of. So if I want to play phrygian, I'm playing in the relative key but being conscious that iii is "home", not I. So I'm not digesting the intervallic layout of the mode (though that is solid analysis), I only need to visualize or track the major scale as it exists up and down the neck and "pick" phrases that center around iii.

What hangs me up is always being "major-centric". Everything is related back to the Ionian from which all other modes are built. At least that's the part I can't shake and I'm not sure that's good. It feels sort of mentally confining. This system helps me break away from that and see each mode separately for what it is with its own unique sound and quality and not always wanting to resolve back to the "I".

Practically I more think of modes as most applicable for soloing which I'm not really into. I'm trying to think more in terms of chord tones and not scales, though they are very useful to me for transitioning to new positions in a linear way. What the diatonic modes do for me is give me a tool to get inside a line and analyze why it works and to make sense of it. For a simple example we all know that a dominant chord has a flat seven and I like knowing why that is theoretically. And of course numerical scale degrees are used to describe chord changes. I mean, some knowledge of modes just helps me to enjoy the way music works.

 

[Malcolm35]

For us mortals modes are for soloing and chord tones are what we build our bass line from. Later we mix the two. But, that is much later.

Let me point out something else; there are two ways of looking at modes.
1) Relative modes. The key changes and the notes of the mode stay the same. This is the one where you just start on another note (root) to get another mode.
2) Parallel modes. Here the key stays the same and the notes change.

We speak in relative or parallel and do not normally tell which one we are using. This can be confusing to the person listening or reading what we say, as again we do not label which way we are using.

My major scale box goes with the Parallel way - root stays the same and the notes change, i.e, I could have a C Ionian starting with the R found in the box, and use the R-2-3-4-5-6-7 notes or a C Lydian starting at that same R but having a spelling of R-2-3-#4-5-6-7.

Going back and looking at which way the post was written (Relative or Parallel) may clear up some of the confusion.

 

[wes stephenson]

I would learn the patterns.

1) Muscle memory. It will be easier to incorporate these patterns into your playing when your muscles are familiar with them. Your brain will "go there" more easily once you have mastered the patterns.

2) Your brain is incredible. As you learn those scale patterns, your brain will begin to digest them and understand when/where/why/how to use them in your playing. You won't even consciously think about it. That "app will be running in the background" so to speak.

3) Nobody ever uses car analogies (sarcasm alert) so let's do it here.

Theory is only the map. Driving is when you apply the theory. If your theory (map) is limited, you will be forced to stay on the major (pun intended) highways. The more in-depth your theory (map) is, and the more your ability to APPLY said theory increases (the better you are able to drive), the more you'll be able to take the scenic route on your drives. Musically, you'll be able to take the backroads and not-so-well-beaten paths that will allow your musical journey to be more interesting to you, your bandmates, and even your audience.


Short version: Yep. It's totally worth the effort.

That’s a good word.

 

[nnnnnn]

2) Parallel modes. Here the key stays the same and the notes change.

How can the key stay the same if the notes change? I think based on the rest of your post that you mean the root stays the same and the other notes (or some of them) change?

 

[swink]

What I am not great at is knowing all the patterns on the neck for all the different modes

I'm just starting to learn them after all these years (what the boredom of COVID can trigger), so I did some research on them ( others may correct me if I'm wrong...)

If you know the pattern for the major scale, you already have the other patterns in your fingers.
If you run it down from the:
I note = Ionian Pattern => Maj 7
II note = Dorian pattern => min 7
III note = Frygian Pattern => sus b9
IV note = Lydian Pattern => maj 7 #11
V note = Mixolydian Pattern => 7
VI note = Eolian Pattern => minor 7
VII note = Locrian => minor 7 b5
The notes in the patterns go great over the chords noted behind them.

 

[lfmn16]

It seems you are using scales, modes and music theory interchangeably. Knowing a scale is NOT knowing music theory.

IMHO, no you do not need to memorize and be able to play every possible scale and mode at speed. You should know your major and minor scales and arpeggios, but it's a lifetime achievement, not something you'll sit down in a few weeks and master. You'll improve your playing more by learning and transcribing what great bass players are playing than by sitting in your room practicing scales for hours a day.

 

[MVE]

How can the key stay the same if the notes change? I think based on the rest of your post that you mean the root stays the same and the other notes (or some of them) change?

He means...
Parallel: C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, etc..
Vs
Relative: C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian....

 

[Just go for it]

Also known as modes!

 

[InhumanResource]

View attachment 3808418

Yep, there they are!

 

[Max Bogosity]

It should be a higher priority to learn arpeggios. If you already know them, then it’s easy to think of all the modes as an arpeggio you already know, plus a few extra notes. For example, the Aeolian mode can be thought of as a minor 7 arpeggio plus the 2, 4 and b6.

This also makes it easy to keep track of which mode goes with which chord without rote memorization.