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learning scale patterns

#62
ics1974 said:
Hello,

Is it necessary to learn all the mode patterns?
I understand how the major scale and the modes work theory wise. i.e the different interval. I also understand how chords are created from scales. What I am not great at is knowing all the patterns on the neck for all the different modes.
I usually stick to chord tones and add in approach notes, chromatics etc in my playing but never really visualize in terms of scale pattern other then the major scale or pentatonics.
My question is as a bass player should I dedicate my time to learning the fingerings of all these scale/mode patterns or is just knowing the theory good enough?
Click to expand...

Depends. How much time do you have for daily practice? Working out the best fingering for bebop heads is a great thing to do. 'Tricotism' by Oscar Pettiford is a great study piece, and if you think its hard on bass guitar, listen to it played on Double Bass.

Have familiarity with all the modes, including the ones from the melodic minor scale, particularly the Super Locrian (7th degree) and the Lydian Dominant (4th degree). Make simple patterns that utilise modes, i.e. (super locrian) CDFG/DEbGA/EbFAB/ etc

BTW I'm not a music teacher, so FWIW.

Anyway, apologies for this joke. It's an old joke Jeff Clyne (R.I.P.) told to me:

A Bass Teacher is excited about getting a new, young student. The kid is comes in for his first lesson and learns all the notes on the E string. Next week he comes in and the instructor shows him all of the notes on the A string. The third week comes, the teacher is waiting, but the kid never shows up. Annoyed, he calls him to see where he is. The kid picks up and says, "Oh, sorry man, I got a gig..."
 
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#65
Mark Ambler said:
A Bass Teacher is excited about getting a new, young student. The kid is comes in for his first lesson and learns all the notes on the E string. Next week he comes in and the instructor shows him all of the notes on the A string. The third week comes, the teacher is waiting, but the kid never shows up. Annoyed, he calls him to see where he is. The kid picks up and says, "Oh, sorry man, I got a gig..."
Click to expand...
The bass player in my rockabilly band decided to learn the upright bass at 70. I asked him how lessons were going, he said, "I'm almost to third position, no point in learning anything after that." :D
 
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#69
The fretboard is one of the few instruments that allow you to learn one pattern and then easily change to other keys. That’s much more difficult to do on keyboard or wind instruments. We might as well take advantage of that. If we make use of those patterns as well as learning which notes we are actually playing up and down the fretboard then we will have a massive toolbox to use.
 
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#70
InhumanResource said:
So this is where I become intrigued and thanks for sharing how you mentally organize this.

Do you find value in thinking of it this way while playing? The way I approach it mentally is that I'm not thinking of the mode per se, I'm thinking of the major scale it is part of. So if I want to play phrygian, I'm playing in the relative key but being conscious that iii is "home", not I. So I'm not digesting the intervallic layout of the mode (though that is solid analysis), I only need to visualize or track the major scale as it exists up and down the neck and "pick" phrases that center around iii.
Click to expand...

Im sorry, Im not explaining this clearly enough.
Maybe you should just give it a try and see if it clicks for you.

With the MILLPAD pattern, you don’t have to first identify the Ionian relative to find your scale notes, as you describe.

If you wish to use Dorian to make a melody over an F minor chord, you just play F Dorian. You don’t need to first think about what the relative Ionian would be and then “start from the II” as you are describing.
 
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#72
ics1974 said:
Hello,

Is it necessary to learn all the mode patterns?
I understand how the major scale and the modes work theory wise. i.e the different interval. I also understand how chords are created from scales. What I am not great at is knowing all the patterns on the neck for all the different modes.
I usually stick to chord tones and add in approach notes, chromatics etc in my playing but never really visualize in terms of scale pattern other then the major scale or pentatonics.
My question is as a bass player should I dedicate my time to learning the fingerings of all these scale/mode patterns or is just knowing the theory good enough?
Click to expand...
I would strongly disagree with the notion of learning the “patterns”. Instead, learn the notes of each scale, know the notes! This will open up more possibilities musically, rather than just thinking in terms of finger patterns.
 
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#73
There's another way to think about "modes" that isn't really trendy on TalkBass, but is very popular in the "real world." And it goes like this:

There are 15 major key signatures and 15 minor key signatures that every musician should know like the back of their hand, over the full range of the instrument. If the composer wants you to play a note outside the key signature, then they use an "accidental" symbol.

For example if you write a blues song in Bb major, you use a key signature of two flats (Bb and Eb). If you want the musicians to play Ab then you write an Ab accidental. Or if you want them to play Db then you write a Db accidental.

Another example, if you are arranging "Greensleeves" in the key of A Minor (no sharps or flats) and the melody calls for F#, then you write an F# accidental. If the melody contains G# then you write a G# accidental.

The brilliance of this system is you can clearly communicate your musical ideas to anyone who reads standard music notation. (Even a beginner who's never studied music theory.)
 
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#74
As a fretted instrument, we are burdened with learning the same sounds in many redundant physical approaches. The more you know the better.. but of course as bassists many of us never need it and can easily get by with simple ‘looks’ and a mastery of a very small cheat sheet of interval shapes.

for us jazz / chops guys, you want to EXHAUST the possibilities, and it will take years. I never had to spend time practicing Dorian the same way I practiced major (Ionian) scales as a kid- you just change the look and sound of the same set- some people don’t find this as easy... but if you just do your scales, and cycle through the other modes, and same for arpeggios, you’re golden. If you’ve already well-practiced your major scales, then stop practicing them- work on the other modes.. you don’t lose anything because it’s the same ‘slot’ of notes being reinforced, but you’re shifting the point of emphasis.

then do your melodic and harmonic modes
 
#76
two fingers said:
I would learn the patterns.

1) Muscle memory. It will be easier to incorporate these patterns into your playing when your muscles are familiar with them. Your brain will "go there" more easily once you have mastered the patterns.

2) Your brain is incredible. As you learn those scale patterns, your brain will begin to digest them and understand when/where/why/how to use them in your playing. You won't even consciously think about it. That "app will be running in the background" so to speak.

3) Nobody ever uses car analogies (sarcasm alert) so let's do it here.

Theory is only the map. Driving is when you apply the theory. If your theory (map) is limited, you will be forced to stay on the major (pun intended) highways. The more in-depth your theory (map) is, and the more your ability to APPLY said theory increases (the better you are able to drive), the more you'll be able to take the scenic route on your drives. Musically, you'll be able to take the backroads and not-so-well-beaten paths that will allow your musical journey to be more interesting to you, your bandmates, and even your audience.


Short version: Yep. It's totally worth the effort.
Click to expand...
That’s a really good analogy.
 
#77
Spin Doctor said:
It's not ever about "play G mixolydian over G7" or any of that.
Click to expand...

And here come WUTP. :banghead: :laugh:

But of course, for those TB members who have learned to play the Root-5th, the word "modes" means almost NOTHING!
For those TB members who like to arpeggiate and have achieve the status of the Bass Player - Arpeggiator, the word "modes" means almost NOTHING! Just look at the written chords and ARPEGGIATE.:bassist:

Now, for those who tend to ask questions like, "What other notes besides the chord notes to play," and/or want to explore the SOLOING aspect of Music, the word, "modes" is a good help.
And, of course, one does not need to learn modes. You can use any other a proprietary explanation that could help you to find the correct notes for this/that composition.

Spin Doctor said:
...is just the same 7 notes in different note sequences
Click to expand...
.

It's true but...

We have an avoided scale degree - the 4th with the Ionian mode/scale.
In our case, it's the note, F.

Should we avoid that note if we have D dorian or G myxolydian?


Avoid.PNG


Avoid2.PNG


Next.
Most of the songs, even simple Pop songs tend to also use other than DIATONIC tones, and that simple mode explanation (as a help tool) could be a good advisor.
 
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