learning scale patterns

[JohnnyBottom]

It's a system organized by bassist Anthony Wellington. Here he is explaining it in a clinic. It was a real epiphany for me! I don't see it as a box pattern. In fact it works horizontally and vertically. It's a neat way of memorizing all the intervals of the seven "church" modes quickly.

Just great Perfect for the way my mind works. Thanks!

 

[TreySonagras]

I’m a HS band director and one of the things I teach my kids is to learn all 12 major scales and be able to start them on every degree. Once they have that under their chops then we start talking about which mode aligns with each scale degree. Then we learn which scale/starting point matches with each chord. Armed with that vocabulary they are able to make it as an improviser. The guitar/bass players have it easier because of being able to shift the same patterns to a different fret, so I really have to stay on them about knowing which notes they are actually playing.

 

[Spin Doctor]

It seems you are using scales, modes and music theory interchangeably. Knowing a scale is NOT knowing music theory.

IMHO, no you do not need to memorize and be able to play every possible scale and mode at speed. You should know your major and minor scales and arpeggios, but it's a lifetime achievement, not something you'll sit down in a few weeks and master. You'll improve your playing more by learning and transcribing what great bass players are playing than by sitting in your room practicing scales for hours a day.

Well, I'm gonna respectfully disagree with this statement here. The ability to harmonize a scale is the foundation of music theory and by definition that means you need to know the major scale. It's the Rosetta stone of western music. "Knowing" a scale doesn't mean running it up and down, though. You should know how to manipulate it in many various ways. Not getting into all that though.

But you are absolutely correct in saying it's a lifetime goal. Working on modes was one of the first tasks my teacher gave me, probably in the first week of lessons. That was ten years ago and I still work on modes at least a little every time I sit down to practice. Knowing that stuff makes transcribing so much easier rather than chasing seemingly random notes, especially when it comes to jazz. Then if you decide to get into learning more information and get into, say, the Melodic Minor, you will realize that the parent scale of Melodic Minor is simply a Dorian mode with a raised 7th. So you only have to change one note. Like wise, Harmonic Minor is simply the Aeolian mode, with a raised 7th. You only have to change one note. Knowing stuff makes moving into uncharted territory easier. At least, the concept will be easier. The execution is the trick...

 

[Mark Ambler]

When I studied piano, one of many things I studied was Hanon book 1,2, and 3. Re scales exercises, you'd play all twelve major scales, each followed by it's relative minor scales, so C Major / A harmonic minor / A melodic minor, then F Major / D min etc.
Still a good workout, but I do only one minor scale, the melodic minor ascending (played the same way, descending, so it's basically a major scale with a flattened 3rd). Tons of different ways to study scales, the best ones are the ones you do

If you're interested, the Hanon books are now public domain, so can be downloaded easily.
Also, to those that liked 'Tricotism', 'Dulzura' by Clare Fischer, is also quite fun.

 

[mrcbass]

Necessary? Nope. We could go deep down a rabbit hole about "necessary", but I'll save that for anther thread.

Useful? Probably. Kind of depends on what you want to accomplish on bass. There are plenty of situations where this knowledge/skill won't get used much if at all. But understanding alternate ways to get anything done is just another useful tool in the bag. It won't be of dramatic help in every situation, but if you're planning on doing any soling, walking or building creative, expressive, melodic bass lines, it a very good tool to have in your box.

 

[lfmn16]

Well, I'm gonna respectfully disagree with this statement here. The ability to harmonize a scale is the foundation of music theory and by definition that means you need to know the major scale. It's the Rosetta stone of western music. "Knowing" a scale doesn't mean running it up and down, though. You should know how to manipulate it in many various ways. Not getting into all that though.
.

He didn't say he knew how to harmonize a scale, which would have changed my answer.

Saying you know music theory because you know scales is like saying you know how to read because you know the alphabet. Yes, you need to know scales in order to know music theory, but you can know scales without knowing a thing about music theory.

 

[Spin Doctor]

He didn't say he knew how to harmonize a scale, which would have changed my answer.

Saying you know music theory because you know scales is like saying you know how to read because you know the alphabet. Yes, you need to know scales in order to know music theory, but you can know scales without knowing a thing about music theory.

OK. I'm just trying to explain the wider picture without being so granular. Points always get missed here because everything is examined under a microscope. Just the nature of Talkbass, I guess.

 

[lfmn16]

Points always get missed here because everything is examined under a microscope.

This we can agree on.

 

[MVE]

Many of the responses here are drastically confusing the difference between knowing what modes are and knowing how to play them.

The OP asked if he should learn to play them... with his fingers.

Obviously, we need to first understand what a mode is and I think we can assume we do to answer the question.

Simply put, YES. Being able to actually play all modes, with your fingers, is helpful when improvising over chords. Seeing an A7 on the chart and being able to riff on the Mixolydian scale over it is a very useful skill to have.

 

[MVE]

I would strongly disagree with the notion of learning the “patterns”. Instead, learn the notes of each scale, know the notes! This will open up more possibilities musically, rather than just thinking in terms of finger patterns.

Why not learn both?
For many people, learning the pattern helps us to learn the notes.

 

[Thundertips]

Good point. I like Rock, Hard Rock, Blues and some Heavy Metal.
I listen to Tragically Hip, Pink Floyd, Metallica, Guns N Roses, John Bonamassa, Clapton, RHCP.

You actually like The Hip? Awesome! Amazing Canadian band that should've been more popular then they were.

 

[Thundertips]

Hello,

Is it necessary to learn all the mode patterns?
I understand how the major scale and the modes work theory wise. i.e the different interval. I also understand how chords are created from scales. What I am not great at is knowing all the patterns on the neck for all the different modes.
I usually stick to chord tones and add in approach notes, chromatics etc in my playing but never really visualize in terms of scale pattern other then the major scale or pentatonics.
My question is as a bass player should I dedicate my time to learning the fingerings of all these scale/mode patterns or is just knowing the theory good enough?

The modes are more important to lead guitar players, so they can get cool classical sounds to their solos. Like Randy Rhoads used Aeolian a lot and Yngwie Malmsteen uses all different modes. As a Bass Player, it's your job to lay the foundation of the song with the Drummer, not go off like Billy Sheehan all the time. It sounds like you know all you need to know right now, but hey, if you wanna learn the modes, go for it. Knowledge is power! I used to play guitar and I know most of the modes. I've never used the modes on Bass. I just concentrate on what notes fit best over the chords in the chord progression especially when writing Bass lines for original songs. When you're playing covers obviously that's more limiting, you have to follow the song. You're not gonna blast a Billy Sheehan solo in the middle of Knockin' On Heaven's Door! Haha.

 

[SteveCS]

... Then if you decide to get into learning more information and get into, say, the Melodic Minor, you will realize that the parent scale of Melodic Minor is simply a Dorian mode with a raised 7th. So you only have to change one note. Like wise, Harmonic Minor is simply the Aeolian mode, with a raised 7th. You only have to change one note. ...

An interesting observation. But I know in my case I learned about the natural, melodic and harmonic minor scales long before getting into modes of the major scale. In doing so, the understanding of the minor key as an entity in its own right was assimilated long before coming across the Aeolian and Dorian modes. I imagine the same would be true for a lot of folks.

So thinking of scales of the minor key in terms of their relationship with the various modes of the major scale seems somewhat convoluted to me. If I'm working in the minor key I would never think in terms of modified modes of the major scale - it's all just 'minor'.

YMMV

 

[IamGroot]

Many of the responses here are drastically confusing the difference between knowing what modes are and knowing how to play them.

The OP asked if he should learn to play them... with his fingers.

Obviously, we need to first understand what a mode is and I think we can assume we do to answer the question.

Simply put, YES. Being able to actually play all modes, with your fingers, is helpful when improvising over chords. Seeing an A7 on the chart and being able to riff on the Mixolydian scale over it is a very useful skill to have.

I didn't really care much about scales and such until I started playing jazz and Ineeded to improvise walking basslines and solos on the spot. Then understanding scales and having them under my fingers on cruise control became super important.

And non jazz stuff became really easy to pick up.

I have been playing jazz for 20 years and it took 2 years of steady practice and gigging to get comfortable with.

 

[JohnnyBottom]

Why not learn both?
For many people, learning the pattern helps us to learn the notes.

It is a 2 way road imho... If you know the patterns you can derive the notes. If you know the notes you can derive the pattern. But the facts are actually knowing the distance between the degrees of the scale in all the modes. We are lucky to have a choice on the approach. A piano player or a sax player doesnt have the luxury of patterns, and they need to know the facts cold.

 

[IamGroot]

It is a 2 way road imho... If you know the patterns you can derive the notes. If you know the notes you can derive the pattern. But the facts are actually knowing the distance between the degrees of the scale in all the modes. We are lucky to have a choice on the approach. A piano player or a sax player doesnt have the luxury of patterns, and they need to know the facts cold.

Yes. My jazz mentor once told a jazz class the problem with guitarists was they memorized fingers so they worked on reflexes instead of brains and listening.

Learning to think and hear scales in terms of degrees was a very good thing for me.

 

[IamGroot]

If you haven't internalized your scales by practice or ear training, how are you learning and memorizing tunes???

Scales/ theory allows you put every song into a framework for easy memorization .

 

[Old P Bass Guy]

Wow! ... Great thread! This topic has flushed out the "Musicians" in the talk bass community! I have no complaint with the people who are only interested which is better "a P or a J" but I am burnt out on it. I'm learning stuff here.
THANKS!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If I'm working in the minor key I would never think in terms of modified modes of the major scale - it's all just 'minor'.

Steve,

Let's take the most recent Chris' transcription - Gil Scott, "Heron".
Bass Transcriptions
It's just POP music and very simple.
Now.
In verse, we have, mostly, two chords - Dmin7 and Ebmaj7.
Ebmaj7
as

Gmin7
Eb = Upper chord Gmin7 and the bass - Ron Carter - Eb major triad.

Now.
How could you link harmonically those two chords?
Do you see any mode/s?

See a few measures of the bass line.

 

[IamGroot]

Well, I'm gonna respectfully disagree with this statement here. The ability to harmonize a scale is the foundation of music theory and by definition that means you need to know the major scale. It's the Rosetta stone of western music. "Knowing" a scale doesn't mean running it up and down, though. You should know how to manipulate it in many various ways. Not getting into all that though.

But you are absolutely correct in saying it's a lifetime goal. Working on modes was one of the first tasks my teacher gave me, probably in the first week of lessons. That was ten years ago and I still work on modes at least a little every time I sit down to practice. Knowing that stuff makes transcribing so much easier rather than chasing seemingly random notes, especially when it comes to jazz. Then if you decide to get into learning more information and get into, say, the Melodic Minor, you will realize that the parent scale of Melodic Minor is simply a Dorian mode with a raised 7th. So you only have to change one note. Like wise, Harmonic Minor is simply the Aeolian mode, with a raised 7th. You only have to change one note. Knowing stuff makes moving into uncharted territory easier. At least, the concept will be easier. The execution is the trick...

My view on Melodic Minor. I think starting from the Ionian.

1 Ionian b3
2 Dorian b2
3 Special.. a Lydian Augmented
4 Lydian b7
5 Mixolydian b6
6 Aeolian b5
7 Locrian b4.

Unfortunately, the fingering gets dicey with melodic minor, requiring stretches or position shifts outside a 4 finger box whereas major diatonic doesn't necessarily require that.

The Lydian Augmented is special because the flat lands on the root. Theoretically it's a phrygian with a flattened root, but its sound is clearly lydian