Lined vs Unlined

[Father Gino]

The lined vs. unlined thing is of course absurd. Play whichever you like, or put circles on the board if you prefer. Tony gets asked which is better, and he’s given you his preference.

But other related questions come up. A fretless bass can be either equal or true tempered. Will that perfect 3rd that you play on your fretless bass interfere when playing with equal tempered instruments? What if the piano player is doubling your bass line like in the olden days? What 3rd do you play?

If you have frets, you’re playing an imperfect 3rd and there’s not much you can do about it. Is it really that noticeable? We all have equal tempered brains in the west.

If you think an equal tempered 3rd sounds unpleasant, be glad you don’t play a Hammond organ which has neither equal nor true temperament, sometimes referred to as Hamburger temperament.

I played fretless electric exclusively for many years. The biggest problem was being able to hear myself playing live in a crummy sounding room, or on a big stage where the sound man likes heavy duty, loud, low end mud.

 

[g-dude]

You have me at a disadvantage. I don't play upright. What I've heard is that the biomechanics of an upright are different and make it easier to have a physical reference point.

I mean, the scale is different. Other than that, there's not a ton that's special besides having more of a stretch requirement.

Frankly, I have to make a slight shift when going from an A to a B on the G string, even though if I was a tiny bit more flexible, I would be able to cover that three "fret" range without moving my hand.

You can listen to some jazz pros play upright, and find times where they are out...but it's not the end of the world, especially when it's a fast moving line.

 

[Hasty]

I mean, the scale is different. Other than that, there's not a ton that's special besides having more of a stretch requirement.

Frankly, I have to make a slight shift when going from an A to a B on the G string, even though if I was a tiny bit more flexible, I would be able to cover that three "fret" range without moving my hand.

You can listen to some jazz pros play upright, and find times where they are out...but it's not the end of the world, especially when it's a fast moving line.

Yep!

You can especially find this in some old live recordings. Intonation is slightly off, but you might only notice it if you're actually listening for it.

For me the only real difference between upright and electric is those slight position shifts or different fingerings due to scale length. I find that to be the only "biomechanical" difference.

 

[prowla]

Lined is like stabilisers on a bike or armbands swimming.

 

[eddododo]

So I play upright bass. I'm quite familiar with even the aspect of what angle my elbow is at.

The fact remains that lines are anchoring. In other words, you are going to naturally gravitate towards using them - even if they aren't right.

First time I ventured above the 12th fret on my Squire fretless, it sounded horrible... it turns out the lines weren't a good reference point to even consider.

Okay, now tell me what happened the first time you ventured above the 12th fret on an unlined fretless

 

[Tommy V]

i haven't done lines since the 80's..

 

[Artman]

I learned to play bass on an unlined fretless. I’ve owned and played both, and it makes no difference to me.

 

[nonohmic]

The lined vs. unlined thing is of course absurd. Play whichever you like

/thread.

 

[eddododo]

Nobody in an orchestra can stare at their fingerboards.


Anyways, not everyone is of the same caliber as this trio, but there's nothing magical about an upright bass (besides its tone) that makes it possible to play without lines or markings.

Nobody in an orchestra plays an identical but fretted version of their same instrument

Nobody in an orchestra plays a guitar shaped instrument, which has no physical kinesthetic references, which you seem to be aware exist.

Nobody in an orchestra is playing an instrument with barely 100 years of tradition.

I get your points, and I sympathize, but

I, again, refuse to accept the premise that an experienced player can’t develop just as fluid or a relationship to an instrument’s pitch if it has fret marking. I know this because I did it. I know this because I’ve done both, and played in orchestras, and played horns which have similar and novel approaches to this kind of issue. In the decades of playing and teaching jazz, classical music, and a variety of pop, I have not once seen this argument be made compellingly in a way that undermines my experience with this exact issue.

If your squier was completely unplayable above the 12th, then it wasn’t set up or it should have been returned.

Interestingly, the most compelling issue, that having inaccurate markings can cause anchor bias, is easily solved by no longer looking at the fretboard.

I truly don’t have a horse in this race, and my own preferences are for unlined instruments, but I absolutely can’t stomach sitting by and watching a thread unfold at the behest of the ‘expertise’ what amounts to me as “some bassist from the 80’s,” when the net effect is discouraging interested players and the stirring up of lazy pedagogy that seems to be entirely conceived out of a concern for the ‘looks’ of an instrument.

 

[bassrique]

If you are playing busy music up abd down the neck, lines are important. Relying on hearing something off means you've played something off and its too late. Fixing with vibrato can cover it up, but lines make things better.

The upright bass is an entirely different animal, not to be compared with a guitar.

For simple stuff, unlined is great, and bass players should likely not want to play busy, as that is often viewed as self-indulgent. Simple is beautiful. Sting played great simple lines with unlined fretless for instance.

I like the option of playing lots and lots of notes all over the place with big jumps, so it's lines for me (and Jaco).

 

[g-dude]

Okay, now tell me what happened the first time you ventured above the 12th fret on an unlined fretless

It’s been a minute - don’t remember, but I can tell you that when I finally go over on the upright into thumb position that I need to practice thumb position more.

That being said, I can usually tell whether I’ve landed on the octave or not. I tend to go a bit sharp, but I don’t want to start over correcting in the other direction.

 

[g-dude]

Nobody in an orchestra plays an identical but fretted version of their same instrument

Nobody in an orchestra plays a guitar shaped instrument, which has no physical kinesthetic references, which you seem to be aware exist.

Nobody in an orchestra is playing an instrument with barely 100 years of tradition.

I get your points, and I sympathize, but

I, again, refuse to accept the premise that an experienced player can’t develop just as fluid or a relationship to an instrument’s pitch if it has fret marking. I know this because I did it. I know this because I’ve done both, and played in orchestras, and played horns which have similar and novel approaches to this kind of issue. In the decades of playing and teaching jazz, classical music, and a variety of pop, I have not once seen this argument be made compellingly in a way that undermines my experience with this exact issue.

If your squier was completely unplayable above the 12th, then it wasn’t set up or it should have been returned.

Interestingly, the most compelling issue, that having inaccurate markings can cause anchor bias, is easily solved by no longer looking at the fretboard.

I truly don’t have a horse in this race, and my own preferences are for unlined instruments, but I absolutely can’t stomach sitting by and watching a thread unfold at the behest of the ‘expertise’ what amounts to me as “some bassist from the 80’s,” when the net effect is discouraging interested players and the stirring up of lazy pedagogy that seems to be entirely conceived out of a concern for the ‘looks’ of an instrument.

Then why not simply put lines on violins, violas, cellos, and double basses?

 

[g-dude]

If you are playing busy music up abd down the neck, lines are important. Relying on hearing something off means you've played something off and its too late. Fixing with vibrato can cover it up, but lines make things better.

The upright bass is an entirely different animal, not to be compared with a guitar.

For simple stuff, unlined is great, and bass players should likely not want to play busy, as that is often viewed as self-indulgent. Simple is beautiful. Sting played great simple lines with unlined fretless for instance.

I like the option of playing lots and lots of notes all over the place with big jumps, so it's lines for me (and Jaco).

Busy, no lines, and still beautiful.



No reason that can’t be accomplished on a bass guitar.

 

[CaribooBass]

What is meant by calling some threads a “Troll Thread”?

Thanks

 

[WG Plum]

What is meant by calling some threads a “Troll Thread”?

Thanks

It means they're posted to serve no purpose other than to cause argument and irritation, which lined vs unlined fretless threads invariably generate.

 

[SteveCS]

...
I, again, refuse to accept the premise that an experienced player can’t develop just as fluid or a relationship to an instrument’s pitch if it has fret marking.
...

The point is not about experienced players - presumably they already have a good fluid relationship with the instrument and a strong neural connection between ears and fingers that is not dependent upon visual cues. As you say, it is a bit far fetched to think that providing visual information to someone that can already play in tune will have a negative impact. This is about the inexperienced player that does not (yet) have such faculty, and the question is whether or not visual cues hinder or help development of the handshape and hand/ear relationship necessary for good intonation. Which is not the same as using visual aids to play seemingly in tune earlier in the learning cycle.

 

[Tom Kinter]

I really seriously learned on a Warwick Fortress MM with not only no lines, but on the edge nothing but the 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, etc. dots right on the money. Yah, I learned to shoot for that note. I decided I loved fretless but preferred 4 strings so I bought a beautiful Thumb 4 NT that that year ('98) Bass Central had for $350 less than the unlined. Dunno how come, but the body is great.
I really don't get this debate since when I'm playing it standing, I can't see the lines anyway (without hunching over & bending my neck awkwardly to obviously look). On the other hand, if I happen to be sitting down and noodling something out from sheet music, the lines are certainly useful.
I haven't said this about 19 times in similar, nay, identical threads, but what the hell, I'm too old to care so: playing an unlined has an intimidating effect on the viewer, and frankly if not for that factor I'm not sure why one should care one way or the other.

 

[Williethump]

I just had my pawnshop Yamaha BB350F fretless restrung with boutique flats, noticed the rounds it came with were scarring the rosewood.
I can't play it much but it's a nice sound when I can hit it, one note in ten. But without the lines it would be worse cacophony.
How in the world does the tech set the intonation? Me and my arthritis like the tactile fingerstyle, I'd feel lost in space floating around with a pick, fine as that tone can be.
The fretless is also tactile, nickel steel string sitting and rolling on rosewood. If only I didn't sound so awful on it. Well, my fretted bass playing wins no clicks or prizes either TBH. But ain't it the life?
I won his quiz too, the 3rd interval is the most divine. I usually only ever play that one and the root and octave. Maybe a 5th. Though I don't have a clue what he was talking about. Love his playing.

 

[Mister Magic]

 

[nonohmic]

Exactly...and here's some for the 'don't look at your board' crowd.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

(These weren't cherry picked btw, they are the top google image results from 'Pino Palladino fretless')