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Lined vs Unlined

I agree with him on the lines being placed where they should be, but they are not where they take into account the height of the string being played. High action means you pull the string a greater distance to come into contact with the neck. That will result in a different pitch than the same instrument with the same strings will after a setup. Guitars never tune easily because it's based on tempered tuning. An open E chord sounds great, and the open A sounds off or vice versa. The Buzz Feiten system helped a bit, but it still isn't perfect. The bottom line is whatever works for you. If lines give you reassurance that you're in the right spot, great. Dots help? Great. A bare plank all you need? Great. Just do a good job.
 
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I’m not gonna poop on anyone who plays a lined fretless, but several years back my band got on stage, started playing the first song, and that’s when the guitarist realized he hadn’t tuned (and he didn’t have a tuner on stage). He was in tune with himself, but not to concert pitch—and consequently not in tune with me. Thankfully I was playing fretless, and as he apologized to me with his eyes from the other side of our singer I just shifted my position to match his pitch and stayed away from open notes for the rest of the gig.

I don’t know if I would have been able to maintain that for a whole gig if I had been playing with lines that were visually telling me what to do—especially on glissandos or multi-position jumps. So for me, unlined forever.
 
Big TF fan here.
Not sold on the logic in this vid.
There is nothing on a lined board that prevents a player from adjusting any interval by ear.

Whilst what you say is true, I think his point, although he never actually said it, was that you hear a lot of discussion around where to play relative to the line to be in tune, a lot of advice like "you need to play over the line", "I always play just behind the line", etc., backed up by a ton of anecdotal 'evidence' about this, that or the other players that did have lined fingerboards and how you will never be as good as them if you don't have them.

The reality is that the folks with under-developed ears, i.e. beginner musicians and those without experience of having to intonate as they play, will go with what they see over what they hear because they trust their eyes and don't (yet) trust their ears. When the visual and aural facts don't agree the highly-trusted visual sense asserts itself over the less-trusted aural one - "my finger looks to be in the wrong place therefore I must be out of tune.", in spite of what their ears are trying to tell them. The very presence of high-profile visual aids holds back (or in some cases may even stall) the development of trust in your ears because they enable the visual sense to take priority. Without the conflicted visual references getting in the way the brain is free to process just the aural information, which has to be better for the music, IMHO.

Some players will get past this and start to intonate properly (through hand-shape and effective aural feedback) in spite of the lines, but some will never get past the reliance on the visual reference.

IME, IMHO, YMMV etc...
 
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So he's discovered just intonation, which is a moot point when playing with other equal temperament instruments like the piano, because if you play it flat it will be out of tune with those instruments. Except when you are the only one playing the third, which is rare.

You are right that intonation is always some kind of compromise once more than one player is involved. But I really don't think that was the point. The point is that lines offer a second source of intonation reference - the visual appearance of the fingertip against the line. Under certain circumstances these two sources of reference do not correlate. The problems arise when the visual reference is taken as the primary source of intonation truth, even when that fails to align with the aural reality of the notes being played. Many folks will persist in achieving the visual reference ("I must play on/behind the line.") without ever listening to the reality of the pitch being produced. Such distraction and conflict cannot happen if the line isn't there in the first place.
 
I have two unlined basses . As they were my own builds this is mostly due to laziness on my part . The upside is they look fantastic to my eyes . I have had no problem playing in tune enough that nobody has thrown anything at me yet . I have no problem at all with lined fretlesses . You don't have to look at the lines . They can be played in tune or out of tune like any other . I have side dots on both my basses to help me out but I appear to use them less and less the more I play . But I still like / need them there to help me out .
 
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I'm not on any one side of this discussion but I have a story...
I was in the music store specifically to try out a certain amp. I picked up a P bass, a Squier but that's not the point of this. After several minutes I discovered it was fretless. Surprised myself for not noticing. What I played sounded just fine; a sales rep walking by paid me a compliment. Wow! maybe one day I'll get a fretless - my initial thoughts. It was lined, with dots on the side of the neck.
I never purchased a fretless bass. I did trade an amp for one of those upright electric broom stick basses (my description). I studied and learned how to make minor intonation corrections on the fly. I just couldn't see a use for it in a classic rock band. It had side dots but no lines.
If I can play without lines, I think anyone can. There's stuff you have to work on, like anything else.
 
First, I love Tony's playing on that recording of Kate Bush. His fills complimented her vocals so well.
Second, I am the proud owner of a TF bass. I've customized it quite a bit. One thing I did was increase the size of the side dots. They are also illuminated, (luminlay). It really helps me see the dots quickly. I highly recommend this mod.
Third, I think Tony's point was that the dots and lines only tell you so much. They are like google maps. The directions will get you to the house. It's up to you to walk to the door.

IMG_20220906_081846.jpg
 
Unlined is better for playing in tune. Period. Hitting a note in tune demands that you put you finger in the right spot. You can only use your eyes and muscle memory to place your finger. Ears do not guide your finger to the right place, but ears kick into gear once the note is first plucked and help to correct off pitch notes and to refine hand position so that muscle memory works better on the next note.

Here's my proof. Close your eyes and have someone hand you a fretless 4 string of unknown scale. Might be 30, 32, 34, 35". With your eyes closed, using only your ears and muscle memory, play an Eb. Odds are pretty good you'll be way off the mark. Open your eyes, now play Eb. Probably be pretty close.

Tony's point that the lack of lines gives you freedom to correct for correct pitch (i.e. not constrained by the lines) isn't a limitation of lines, but a limitation of the player who hasn't yet learned how to use the lines to their best advantage.

I play unlined. Side dots are enough visual reference for me. I like the looks better and, quite honestly, if I'm playing fretless I want FULL CREDIT from the audience :)

Did you mean “lined is better” then?
 
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Unlined is better for playing in tune. Period. Hitting a note in tune demands that you put you finger in the right spot. You can only use your eyes and muscle memory to place your finger. Ears do not guide your finger to the right place, but ears kick into gear once the note is first plucked and help to correct off pitch notes and to refine hand position so that muscle memory works better on the next note.

Here's my proof. Close your eyes and have someone hand you a fretless 4 string of unknown scale. Might be 30, 32, 34, 35". With your eyes closed, using only your ears and muscle memory, play an Eb.

That doesn’t make any sense. You can’t have muscle memory on an arbitrary scale bass where you don’t even know the scale. Muscle memory from a 34” scale doesn’t translate to a 30”.

Also, playing upright bass, before you actually start playing, you warm up. By using only your instrument, its notes and harmonics, you can build your roadmap.
 
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Then there's the debate "What is better, just or equal temperment?" As Tony Franklin points out the major third by the tuner sounds off - that's equal temperment. But if he plays what sounds right he will be clashing when he plays with any equal tempered instrument, like a guitar. Should he play what sounds in tune with his instrument, or in tune with those around him?
 
Jesus Christ a 9 minute video to point out ‘a major third should be a little flat, so you have to intonate by ear’

The funniest part is that you, with a lined fretless, can just play the major thirds a little flat, regardless of lines. The punctuation of my point? Every single interval he played had to be shmoozed up in tune… he had to tune them by ear anyway, so I don’t really understand what the issue would be with having lines




And yes, I get it, the lines aren’t reliable. Neither are the lack of lines. Got it?



and furthermore, a double bass, violin, etc, all rely on physical feedback and kinesthetic awareness that is not easily afforded by a guitar-shaped-object. In other words, a bass guitar neck doesn’t give you the name physical points of reference that you get on things like classical strings.
 
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Then there's the debate "What is better, just or equal temperment?" As Tony Franklin points out the major third by the tuner sounds off - that's equal temperment. But if he plays what sounds right he will be clashing when he plays with any equal tempered instrument, like a guitar. Should he play what sounds in tune with his instrument, or in tune with those around him?

That assumes the guitar is properly intonated. Which is a bigger assumption that it should be, unfortunately.
 
shut it down...the master has spoken


I confess to having only listened to 75% of the vid.

Two entirely separate things going on here.

First, TF points out that he is using visual marks - the dots on the side of the fretboard. Most of us do use visual marks on fretless bass guitar.

I have heard exactly one blind bassist playing fretless bass guitar with great intonation; so it can be done. But, I suspect the time required for that degree of muscle memory would deter many players. Still it is possible.

In any case, TF then describes chordal intonation. Now, don’t get me wrong; chordal intonation is a very significant part of ensemble play. Being aware that physical intonation positions are slightly off of pleasing chordal intonation(or tempering) is a very big deal. But, to implement that understanding on fretless bass guitar means that one has to use ears to adjust stop positions relative to the visual markers. Yup.

But, that is only thinly related, if at all, to where the visual markers are located. Whether the visual marker is on the fretboard edge or on the fingerboard surface, the stop position has to be adjusted by ear to obtain a pleasing chordal ensemble result. This is precisely the point of the Buzz Feiten tuning system on the fretted instruments.

That C# (3rd) of G, to which he refers) does get adjusted in a G chord. But, if the tune is in C#, instead of G, then the C# mark, wherever it may be, is good. The marks are irrelevant, except as reference.

So, I find TF’s logic to be slightly disconnected. The marks are just marks. It doesn’t matter where they are; the player has to be aware and play well. To this end, it is the player’s ears that matter, not where marks are located.

Couple other things:
First, it is important to note that Edgar Meyer has dots on the fingerboard of his 18th century upright; and in his Master classes, he explains how he uses them. I don’t have marks on the fingerboards of my upright basses; but, I also don’t perform the solo work, at which EM excels.

Second, marks on the fingerboard surface of fretless bass guitar without question assist rapid shifts into the upper register to be more accurate, when playing material, such as Bop heads etc. A simpler example is the bass break in Alright Now. Yes, ears matter; but, there are definitely parts which, (how would I put it?) require best accuracy faster. And what I mean is hitting “close enough” for the tempo of the line. And for that purpose, some kind of marks on the fingerboard surface without question are useful. Still have to use the ears. There are three aspects: mechanical, visual, and ears. They all matter.

Third, many inexperienced fretless players tend to simply translate their fretted fingering onto the fretless instrument. But, in many cases, this means targeting the space between where the frets would be. On a lined board, that approach leads to unacceptable intonation inaccuracy, and confuses the player because of the apparently misleading visual reference.

Fourth, I’m pretty tired of this argument. Much of it is perceived masculinity by having the appearance of a visually more distinct blank board, combined with confirmation bias; such as TF’s vid, which confuses two separate aspects. The audience can’t hear the visual marks wherever they are. So, the marks, wherever they may be on a given instrument are irrelevant, as long as the player delivers the goods. There are simply well played parts and not so well played parts. The point is that (obliquely) criticizing another player’s setup choices before the playing happens is foolish.

I know, TL;DR.
 
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Jesus Christ a 9 minute video to point out ‘a major third should be a little flat, so you have to intonate by ear’

The funniest part is that you, with a lined fretless, can just play the major thirds a little flat, regardless of lines. The punctuation of my point? Every single interval he played had to be shmoozed up in tune… he had to tune them by ear anyway, so I don’t really understand what the issue would be with having lines




And yes, I get it, the lines aren’t reliable. Neither are the lack of lines. Got it?

I think the point is that if you have the lines, you are more likely to play to the lines.

If you don’t have the lines, you don’t have that luxury, or potential fallacy.
 
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Then there's the debate "What is better, just or equal temperment?" As Tony Franklin points out the major third by the tuner sounds off - that's equal temperment. But if he plays what sounds right he will be clashing when he plays with any equal tempered instrument, like a guitar. Should he play what sounds in tune with his instrument, or in tune with those around him?

One of the magical things about orchestra is that the mass of players averages out the tuning… There aren’t 30 violins because they’re too quiet, there’s 30 because they will sound more in tune than 6 violins. Same goes for choir. In the example you illustrated, it’s not impossible for there to be a clash, especially depending on the tone and things like that, but generally speaking if you use a “resonant third“ and a guitarist is perfectly in tune, it’s pretty likely to sound inoffensively major.


Just like a fretted bass chord..
 
O...but generally speaking if you use a “resonant third“ and a guitarist is perfectly in tune, it’s pretty likely to sound inoffensively major.
Depends on how sensitive you are to out-of-tuneness.

Just like a fretted bass chord..
Which sound terribly out of tune to me.