Lined vs Unlined

[eddododo]

Depends on how sensitive you are to out-of-tuneness.

more than adequately sensitive.

I just refuse to pretend that equal temperament major thirds are starkly offensive, especially considering all of the lack of care that goes into cross tuning, intonation of the instrument, detuning due to technique or position, quirks of guitar tuning and voicing…

it’s just not that big a deal, and I don’t think it requires anything more than listening and reacting. It’s not that severe, nor that complicated . And most of our responsibility is to tune a two note chord at most..

Which sound terribly out of tune to me.

I’m not a big fan of it myself, which is why I force it into resonance on fretted or fretless, but I think it stands to reason that it’s ‘fine’ for most situations, especially since the two most common chord instruments are both equal temperament tuned.

 

[Stewie]

Yondu was smiling when he opened the orb and found an orange haired troll. I don’t know if he would have really enjoyed the super powerful whatever it was stone

 

[eddododo]

I think the point is that if you have the lines, you are more likely to play to the lines.

If you don’t have the lines, you don’t have that luxury, or potential fallacy.

Okay but what is playing on the line? Most agree you play just behind it.. okay, but how far behind it? Where exactly is your finger touching, which finger molecule is the first one not touching the note? what about if that molecule falls in the valley of a round wound string?

Even if somebody falsely believed that you should play dead on the lines, even doing just that is very hard to define, and the variance within a range of positions that could all be reasonably called ‘in the right place right behind the line’ are pretty wide, and definitely wide enough to make an audible difference.

Go fret a note on a fretless, and roll your finger back-and-forth on the spot. Hear how wildly out of tune you can get?

 

[Pings Bass]

Lines on a fretless don't make your thirds sound sharp, but frets sure do.

He's talking about just intonation without ever saying the words equal temperament or mentioning pianos.

 

[eddododo]

BUT HERES THE REAL POINT. PLAYING IN TUNE TAKES SKILL, AND GOOD PLAYERS PLAYING LINED FRETLESS ARE GOING TO USE THEIR EARS TO CONTROL THE NOTE EXACTLY AS MUCH AS AN UNLINED PLAYER

edit: actually, no, it’s probably more likely that a lined fretless player will be MORE in tune, since they have a visual reference against which they make adjustments. My 13th ‘fret’ Ab is marked a little sharp- now I know that, and after establishing a better position, I can now play that position Every. Single. Time. And I’m still allowed to use my ears. Amazing.

‘Oh but mr eddododo, wizards like Tony Franklin have dialed in their unlined instruments for decades, they can play laser in-tune on the DOWNBEAT.’
Huh… I guess lined fretless players don’t also get better at their instrument over time. What a bummer. Also…. It’s not like Tony Franklin played all of his downbeat in tune in that very video… I think it sounded fine, which is kind of the other part of my point, whether or not small variations in intonation, especially brief ones, are noticeable, we do know unequivocally that in the example given, Franklin didn’t even play everything in tune. So if being perfectly in tune matters, unlined fretless still aren’t better. If being perfectly in tune DOESN’T matter, which is often doesn’t, unlined fretless still isn’t better




It’s ridiculous, if not just asinine, to assert that a good player would be less able to play accurately and adjust smoothly by ear than someone without lines.

‘But eddododo, what about beginners? A beginner fretless player is going to rely on the lines because they don’t have muscle memory buildup yet, so any flaws in the line position or intonation is going to express itself when they put their finger on that marked spot’

oh no kidding, word? Do we think that a beginner fretless player is going to sound more in tune without lines? Maybe this sounds like a strawman, but this is actually a virtually verbatim exchange I’ve had on this discussion.



The only argument, and I mean the ONLY argument that makes any sense is that an advanced player could have a better sense of intonation than the instrument markings, and that the lines will pull the player, unwillingly, towards the line and away from the proper pitch. It should be obvious, but this is an absurd argument because it assumes that an advanced enough player is going to have all of the skills, but not have developed the ability to know your instrument well enough to adjust things.. must be tough for all those wind instruments and who just have to play out of tune all the time because they can’t change natural inclination of their instruments’ keys/buttons… oh wait, nevermind, we can actually plan on certain notes and ranges responding predictably, my bad, it’s actually super easy.. my high E and A tend to be flat because of how the second valve works on my horn. I raise those pitches with my mouth when I play them. The end. Who would have guessed, the buttons don’t have to be perfect in order to play in tune at the beginning of the note.

The only difference between the two is that a beginner will sound better on a lined one quicker, and that’s about it.
Playing in tune is not something exclusive to unlined fretless, and it’s one of the goofiest arguments I’ve ever heard.

Seriously, if anyone can explain to me why an unlined fretless is exclusively capable of a resonant chord, as opposed a lined fretless, I’ll PayPal you $100.
If I can down-bend my 10th to make a resonant major chord on my FRETTED basses, why would that be uniquely difficult on a marked fretless

And for the cherry on top, my fretless is unlined, so don’t even try to bug me about that.

 

[darwin-bass]

That doesn’t make any sense. You can’t have muscle memory on an arbitrary scale bass where you don’t even know the scale. Muscle memory from a 34” scale doesn’t translate to a 30”.

My example was meant to illustrate that you greatly benefit from visual references to play in tune. Remove muscle memory and use just your ears and you're in trouble. It takes all three.

 

[darwin-bass]

Did you mean “lined is better” then?

Yes, I sure did mean "lined" but typed "unlined". <fail>

 

[skyline_01]

I don't care which one you go with. Find the bass that brings you joy.

That said, I took out my unlined fretless for the first time in a while this weekend. There is something just too cool about a blank slab staring back at me. I love it!

+1 here. LOVE the unlined look, and that's by far what's easier to play for me.

I also prefer the look of a blank fretted board (no dots/blocks) though I don't own any basses like that at the moment LOL. My last one was an early Gibson-era Tobias Killer B5. Shoulda hung on to that one.

 

[SteveCS]

Okay but what is playing on the line? Most agree you play just behind it.. okay, but how far behind it? Where exactly is your finger touching,

Since we have already established that the lines themselves are at best an approximation, a distraction for some and at worst a false prophet, why is this still a question? Lines or not, hard graft developing handshape and active listening are all that matter.

 

[eddododo]

Since we have already established that the lines themselves are at best an approximation, a distraction for some and at worst a false prophet, why is this still a question? Lines or not, hard graft developing handshape and active listening are all that matter.

There’s a million reasons, not least of which is ‘who cares?’

but here’s a few anyway
-not everybody wants or needs to become a master fretless player, with the instrument an extension of their person. Sure would be nice to get that fretless sound without delving into irrelevant minutiae.
-not everybody only plays one instrument, so even if you have very good kinesthetic awareness in relationship to the instruments, all of that goes out the window, which is compounded by guitar shaped instruments already suffering from a lack of physical frame of reference
- Beginners don’t have to choose between sounding god awful or just avoiding fretless. In fact, a talented player will more quickly develop a relationship to their instrument, since they can compare the intonation to the visual feedback anyway.
-I think the average bass player probably bends notes with sloppy fretting technique as much or more out of tune than the difference between a fret line and the true pitch.

Whether or not the lines are there, the player still has to deal with placing the finger in the right place. It’s borderline objective that it’s easier to adjust to a frame of reference (an incorrect fret line) than to adjust to less of a frame of reference (up the neck, squinting past the side dot.) A good player of either instrument is going to sound very good after some time. A beginner of either instrument? I’ll let you guess which one I think would sound better at a gig this weekend if I hand them a bass today

and just around it out, the first fretless I ever played was a squier, and you know what? The lines were more than close enough. If one of the cheapest instruments I’ve ever played is plenty serviceable, then I’m inclined to infer that someone who is made WORSE by having fret markers is probably just not very good to begin with

 

[johnh89]

Jeez chaps ! Don't take it all so seriously . I could take any instrument in the world and make it sound awful . Just as a true master could do the opposite . We are all somewhere in the middle . Unless you are me or the master .

 

[mr80htz]

1. You have a different relationship when playing an unlined fretless and you need to use your ear instead of your eyes more often. One of the best things I have learned as a player is to stop looking at your hand when playing all the time. The music feels different, especially when soloing
2. It's harder and more rewarding when you climb that mountain
3. It's looks waaaaaaay cooler

Just learn unlined. It's a hobby within itself.

 

[Hasty]

I always enjoy reading perspectives on this when it comes up about every 11 days. You can always spot the orchestra kids in the convo.

I agree with @two fingers ... if it brings you joy then play it.

I currently play an unlined fretless and it's a lot of fun. I used to play a 5 string lined fretless, it was a lot of fun too.

My current unlined fretless has a 34" scale. My fretted bass has a 35" scale. My other fretless instrument has a 42" scale. I feel like sometimes that messes with my muscle memory a little, but that's ok.

Depending on how much I've practiced, the context of what I'm playing (and probably a hundred other factors) sometimes that fretless bass sounds spot on and amazing. Sometimes it doesn't sound amazing. In my instance, it probably wouldn't matter if it was lined or not. I seldom look down at the fingerboard because most of my gigs are reading gigs. However it doesn't take me long at all to correct my intonation, because I'm listening to everything going on around me.

Sometimes people will comment on how awesome the fretless sounds, with the beautiful "mwah" sound and subtle slides into notes that just sounds so "musical". In all honesty that's probably just me making micro-corrections to my intonation on the fly. If I had a solo gig, I probably wouldn't bring the fretless... but in the context of a group I would never hesitate to grab it (and I frequently do).

 

[Smooth_bass88]

I’m gonna custom-make a lined fretless with a relic finish just to make people lose their shiznits!

 

[g-dude]

Okay but what is playing on the line? Most agree you play just behind it.. okay, but how far behind it? Where exactly is your finger touching, which finger molecule is the first one not touching the note? what about if that molecule falls in the valley of a round wound string?

Even if somebody falsely believed that you should play dead on the lines, even doing just that is very hard to define, and the variance within a range of positions that could all be reasonably called ‘in the right place right behind the line’ are pretty wide, and definitely wide enough to make an audible difference.

Go fret a note on a fretless, and roll your finger back-and-forth on the spot. Hear how wildly out of tune you can get?

So I play upright bass. I'm quite familiar with even the aspect of what angle my elbow is at.

The fact remains that lines are anchoring. In other words, you are going to naturally gravitate towards using them - even if they aren't right.

First time I ventured above the 12th fret on my Squire fretless, it sounded horrible... it turns out the lines weren't a good reference point to even consider.

 

[g-dude]

My example was meant to illustrate that you greatly benefit from visual references to play in tune. Remove muscle memory and use just your ears and you're in trouble. It takes all three.

The visual aspect is still unnecessary.

Nobody in an orchestra can stare at their fingerboards.

Check this out:



Scott Colley isn't watching his fingerboard - he's looking past it, has eyes closed, is looking the other way, or is looking at Julian.

Also, he's cloned himself and is seated in the crowd.

Bonus:



Such a great song...


Anyways, not everyone is of the same caliber as this trio, but there's nothing magical about an upright bass (besides its tone) that makes it possible to play without lines or markings.

 

[Cutter8]

shut it down...the master has spoken

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

/end me please

 

[darwin-bass]

The visual aspect is still unnecessary.

Nobody in an orchestra can stare at their fingerboards.
...
Anyways, not everyone is of the same caliber as this trio, but there's nothing magical about an upright bass (besides its tone) that makes it possible to play without lines or markings.

You have me at a disadvantage. I don't play upright. What I've heard is that the biomechanics of an upright are different and make it easier to have a physical reference point.

 

[J Posega]

Play what you are comfortable with.

I prefer unlined because sometimes the lines contract or expand differently than the fingerboard wood and you get a little buzz from them. I also find really bright lines to be distracting and honestly confusing.

I much prefer having dots at every position on the side and face of the fingerboard.