Yep. Last time I played with a group like this I (nick) named them The Chainsaw Brothers. Two songs, shook their hands, packed up and carried on. Never looked back.
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Live Sound Problems
- Thread starter pshep68
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buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Yeah, ask some guitar players to turn down, they look at you like you just told them to kick a puppy.
This guy is making the solution easy for you.
Like it, lump it, or leave it. You won't fix it.
Your problem with live sound then ISN'T everyone's stage volume. It IS lack of proper monitors. If you (meaning the entire band) can afford to, move to amplified personal (Hot Spot, Behringer 205, etc) monitors or best bet, in ear monitors and get a proper mix of ALL instruments and vocals. If the PA system has enough monitor sends for everyone to have their own mix then you all can highlight what you individually need in your mix. This will allow for everyone including Sir Blast Alot to play at a lower back line volume and result in a cleaner, lower volume and more professional FOH mix.
Curiously........can you tell me just what mixer, amp/EQ/processor/effects and main cabinet setup you are running through?
Didn't read the whole thread, but it's obvious that your band knows very little about how to mix sound. Without a basic knowledge, the more you "turn up" the worse it will get. I could go on forever about this, but you need to be in a band that WANTS to hear the bass, just as much as themselves. Who want to hear each other. Lacking that, you're pretty much SOL.
There's lots of information out there on how to mix a band, so there is hope. But someone has to have something in their head other than "turn up". Good luck.
There's lots of information out there on how to mix a band, so there is hope. But someone has to have something in their head other than "turn up". Good luck.
I can't imagine how unbelievably loud this must be for an 810 to get buried from a few feet away. I use one and barely turn the master past 3 with the gain cranked pretty high.
The best guitarist we played with was a sub who brought a little 30 watt custom job, 10 inch combo on a stand. We mic'd everything and that sucker SCREAMED on stage. It was awesome. And that was an outdoor gig.
You have to solve for the guitar player, not your gear. If an 810 isn't loud enough, the problem is you guys are way, way too loud.
The best guitarist we played with was a sub who brought a little 30 watt custom job, 10 inch combo on a stand. We mic'd everything and that sucker SCREAMED on stage. It was awesome. And that was an outdoor gig.
You have to solve for the guitar player, not your gear. If an 810 isn't loud enough, the problem is you guys are way, way too loud.
That kind of old school meathead mentality pisses me off. People want to enjoy live music but also talk to each other. Blasting as loud as you can is stupid and selfish.
I hate to be in the 'quit' camp but if the dude won't be reasonable you are effed. The only other suggestion is IEMs with your own mix control. That'd solve your personal problem but not the overriding problem.
I hate to be in the 'quit' camp but if the dude won't be reasonable you are effed. The only other suggestion is IEMs with your own mix control. That'd solve your personal problem but not the overriding problem.
I'm sorry, this is so far off bass it needs mentioning. If you are standing 4 feet from a SVT and 810 DIMED, then yes, you have a volume problem. Adding more volume isn't the answer.
I didn't advocate adding more volume. I suggested that since the gent involved in this said that everyone turned up to hear themselves that there seems to be a monitoring issue. The guitar player is the start of the problem and everyone else just makes it worse by following suit. If they can solve the monitor issue then lower stage volume will follow and the main problem is solved.
I agree that anyone using a big rig not being able to hear themselves at close range is certainly a major problem. I know that with my setup, Hartke 3500 through a Hartke 810XL cab, if I run my gain at anything over 2 I rattle windows and vibrate things off shelves! Most of the time I need to keep my gain just below 1 in a live situation and at that it's on the edge of being a bit loud. I can't imagine pushing an SVT at full throttle!
Honestly, with everyone cranked up the mix must sound awful. I really think that if the offending guitarist had lots of himself in the monitor with low stage volume he would be happy and thus allow everyone else to maintain a sane back line volume.
Ric5
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First of all the louder you get the worse your live sound will be.
Then ...
- your guitarist is probably owning the low mid range 200 to 400.
- a jazz bass naturally scoops mids.
- fat strings add more bass, not more mids.
Possible solutions ...
- Turn down and get in ear monitors, especially get your guitar player to turn down.
- Get a bass eq pedal and try boosting low mids.
Lighter string gauges will bring out more mid overtones and make the bass less boomy I play 125 95 75 60 40 on a 5 string. Bass is about mids
I play with a 150 watt b3 ampeg head ... and the knobs set from 1 to 10, gain 3, drive 3, bass 9, ultra mid 7, treble, 7, master volume 4, eq panel 40hz-0db, 80hz +3db, 150hz+6db, 300hz+10db, 600hz+3db, 900hz+10db, 2khz+6db, 5khz+3db, 8khz+2db
I have a DOD bass eq pedal that I adjust per the situation ... usually boosting low mids a little.
I use active and passive basses all 5 string ... When I play with loud bands I use an Ampeg b2r with 350 watts and a 2x10 cab and a 1x18 cab I usually mike a 10 into the pa with an sm57 or use a direct out. These days I am playing with quieter bands and I play through a 1x15 or a pair of 2x10 cabs. You might try a 4x10 cab and a powered sub. Let the sub do 125hz and lower and let the 4x10 do the rest.
Ric5
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I have literally done this with bands that are too loud just to see if anybody even noticed ... if they don't notice then that is terrible ... some musicians just go off in their own little space in their head and don't listen to the rest of the band ...
The problems with playing too loud is then dynamics go completely out the window, vocals and harmonies get off key, timing goes bad ... everybody just follows the too loud guitar and it sounds unprofessional
I did something like that one time. The keyboardist was basically playing my bass parts. Now granted, this was at a practice; but I just stopped playing, shut down my amp and took off my bass. Everybody stopped and said, "What are you doing?!"
I told them, "Clearly, you don't need me here. (Keyboard Guy) is playing keyboard bass, so I'll just head on out." The keys player apologized, and never really stepped on my parts after that. (At least not very often...)
SVT and 8x10 too quet? Big problem. If your rig is not broken, you should find someone else to play with. I played a gig last night with a 1x12 and was worried about being too boomy. Probably not the same kind of music, but there were drums and the guitarist played through a Mesa 100w combo.
Music is mainly a people problem. You might feel insecure about leaving, but if you set your mind right, you will find people who you will enjoy playing with and who enjoy playing with you.
Music is mainly a people problem. You might feel insecure about leaving, but if you set your mind right, you will find people who you will enjoy playing with and who enjoy playing with you.
I suggest buying ear plugs and keep playing with them while you look for a new band to join. Live sound is a team sport, and if there is no team it will sound bad no matter what you do as an individual. Though, I would suggest getting a good HPF - that can help you keep some low end without any boomy problems, they are a great live sound tool for bass players. Find fDeck HPF here on talkbass for a good example - I always have one in my chain whether I use it or not.
I've been in situations like yours before, OP, and sadly, there will be nothing you can do. There are some guitar players that just need to be loud because "thats how I get my tone". Sometimes I can't blame them, especially if they are running a tube rig. The louder those go, the better they tend to sound.
With electric drums and a keyboard player, you guys have a good base to ALL GO DIRECT. Have the guitar player ditch the massive amp set up and go with a Fractile or a Line 6 Helix. You can use a Bass Pod or a Bass Driver. From there you let the PA do all the work. I had a band like that and it was amazing because we could have a normal conversation on stage without shouting, and as soon as you walked out front it was a blazing loud rock show. Club owners loved it because I could turn the whole mix down if needed. Another bonus was practices. We had a headphone amp hooked up and when we practiced, we could send the main mix to the headphones and practice so quietly my infant son could be upstairs sleeping and we wouldn't disturb him.
Now, your would probably never convince that guitar player to go with that situation. Maybe get a set of in-ears for yourself? It will help dampen the sound on stage, and you can mix them how you want so you could have some bass in the mix too. You will keep your volume down and be doing your part to lessen the volume wars.
With electric drums and a keyboard player, you guys have a good base to ALL GO DIRECT. Have the guitar player ditch the massive amp set up and go with a Fractile or a Line 6 Helix. You can use a Bass Pod or a Bass Driver. From there you let the PA do all the work. I had a band like that and it was amazing because we could have a normal conversation on stage without shouting, and as soon as you walked out front it was a blazing loud rock show. Club owners loved it because I could turn the whole mix down if needed. Another bonus was practices. We had a headphone amp hooked up and when we practiced, we could send the main mix to the headphones and practice so quietly my infant son could be upstairs sleeping and we wouldn't disturb him.
Now, your would probably never convince that guitar player to go with that situation. Maybe get a set of in-ears for yourself? It will help dampen the sound on stage, and you can mix them how you want so you could have some bass in the mix too. You will keep your volume down and be doing your part to lessen the volume wars.
This is why I love playing R&B, Funk, Pop and Top40 music. I don't have to deal with that kinda mess and insane volume. Occasionally have to deal with a keyboardist with a left hand bass problem but we nip that in the bud quickly. I don't do the rock/metal thing and just don't understand the need for such high volume levels. Nor the need for guitarists to have such a heavy sound. Why even have a bass player?!
I think a lot of guitarists make the same mistake that many bass players do, and that is confusing bedroom solo tone for a good live mix sound. Guitarists also often fail to realize that the great tone that they "need" - which is a tube amp played to high levels for proper breakup - could be better done with a much smaller wattage amp; most bars should only require a 15w amp miced into the pa. or using any number of external power adjusters to fit the need. But alas, it is America and rock and roll which means bigger = better.
I am lucky that the guys I have played with for many years now very much embrace frequency layering and we can play with reasonable volumes for rock and still be very clear.
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You're describing my nightmare band: with a guitarist playing too loud and with lots of low end.
I am not sure you can win there if you say he won't listen... going with in ear monitoring may be the only solution apart from beating up the guitarist in the car park, which may be very tempting but rarely results in an improved sound as I don't think the acoustics of a prison cell are great.
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