Live sound solution for excessive bass stage volume?

[Gravedigger Dav]

Sound bounces off walls and ceilings and floors and bodies and interacts with room shapes. It has little or nothing to do with distance.

So, since I'm standing in front of the amp, the sound hasn't bounced off anything. Once it gets into the room, the bouncing around causes the sound to change, right?
So, the effect I described is correct. What was not correct is the science I quoted. I did not mean to mislead nor spread myth. I was repeating something a sound engineer told me a long time ago.
Thanks for helping me understand this.

 

[monkeyfinger]

I think a lot of stage problems has to do with lack of intelligibility. When we can't hear ourselves well, we respond by turning up. Our band mates now hear less of themselves and respond by doing the same It's a vicious cycle. The solution is to improve intelligibility. Here is how I address the problem:

• Don't expect to throw the sound around the stage. That just make a mess.
• Put the sounds where they are needed. Ex: either put the bass in the drum monitor, or position the bass amp so the drummer can hear it well
• I like to put the rhythm guitar amp and the bass amp very close to each other on one side of the drummer. The lead guitar goes on the other.
• Put a little high-passed kick in the monitors so you can hear the hammer. That will tighten everything up.
• Know where your instrument slots into the mix. Give each other room.

This is why more monitors are actually better. Each performer gets a monitor mix tailored to them. When the monitor is close to you, it can be much lower in volume and still be effective. Also, amps should be positioned and pointed for best sound on the stage, not out towards the audience. But if you don't have the amps in the PA, you end up setting it up for double duty.

Which brings us to the best solution: IEMs!!

 

[lz4005]

So, since I'm standing in front of the amp, the sound hasn't bounced off anything. Once it gets into the room, the bouncing around causes the sound to change, right?

That's part of it. But also consider that if you're standing right in front of an 8x10 you're mostly hearing the top two speakers. The air being moved by the lower speakers isn't going to hit your ears. Someone sitting 20 feet away will have their ears more in line with the full cone of sound coming out of the cab, so it could sound louder to them.

 

[jthisdell]

What exactly is the makeup of the rest of the band? And did you check out the stage itself? I have played on some that were absolutely terrible, could not set a bass cab on them.

 

[punchdrunk]

Admittedly I haven’t read the thread, but it’s 100% an EQ issue.

 

[Stumbo]

l

On-Stage - RS7000 - On-Stage Stands Hopefully this will do the trick!...

Yep, A stand and the HPF in the Zoom will do you good.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[Hambone70]

Thanks for all the replies, and for the comprehensive discussion, debate, and (at times) argument on acoustics. I think I have learned enough to fix the issues.

The band make-up is two electric guitars into smallish tube amps, acoustic drums, 3 vocals. Standard classic/yacht/country rock, etc. Analog mixer into 15” 2-way powered tops with vocals and kick going through the PA. Overall stage volume is fairly low, and the venues vary in size and composition.

Thanks again!

 

[Stumbo]

There's also no downside to Putting the guitar amps on tilt-back stands.

 

[Eddie LeBlanc]

Also to help in knowing what may be important is a neat old Blog Article from Carvin.
It talks about power needed for bass amps and why.
200W vs 2000W: How to Decide How Much Bass Amp You Need

 

[2playbass]

Try elevating the Rumble with an amp stand or milk crate. Does that help reduce the boomy stage sound?

You can even buy a stand to get it higher off the floor, and angled so you can point it at your head. I agree with the other posters though - you should be able to run a mic cable from your direct output into a channel on the board. Just don't put that channel into the aux mix for the monitors so it will only be heard in the mains. In fact, if you put the guitar(s) into the board too (mic'd or DI), you might be able to get everyone to turn down. That will also help you hear the vocals in the monitors better.

 

[Mosfed]

Turn down?

I love people who state the blatantly obvious when it is clearly the best answer.

hats off buddy. That’s even better than my response to that overdrive thread.

 

[Bboopbennie]

What we all seem to agree on is the combo needs to be focused / pointed at the bass player?
This really is a game changer on how the Player hears what its sounds like. EQ , HP filter and
volume should straighten out the rest of it . Hopefully you have a discerning sound person who
can give you a thumbs up when its right?

 

[Stranger Danger]

I’m currently playing a P Bass through a Rumble 100. There is plenty of volume for the gigs we’re doing, although I’m not a fan of the tone, which I describe as “cardboard”. I realize I need an amp/cab or combo upgrade. Or do I?

Only the vocals are going through the PA, and everyone uses floor wedges, which are also vocals only. The problem is when I crank the Rumble to a decent volume, the bass swamps the stage, goes all boomy, and nobody can hear the monitors clearly. My only solution at the last gig was to turn the bass down, which meant very little bass was getting out to FOH. I just ordered a Broughton HPF to help, but I don’t think that’s the only solution.

So I’m thinking that the bass has to get off the stage. The current PA isn’t beefy enough to DI the bass straight from a preamp or model to the mixer.

So how can I clean up the stage volume without putting the bass through the PA? I like the idea of running a modeling preamp like the new POD Go straight to the PA. So rather than buying a better bass amp/cab or combo, I could spend the cash on adding a powered sub to the PA. The mixer only has a single aux send, so everyone has to listen to the same vocals. I can’t put the bass through the monitors.

Any solutions appreciated!

Youre trying to do too much with a 100 watt amp. I will never gig with less than 500 watts and a 212 or 410. Headroom is your friend.

 

[monkeyfinger]

It's probably not the amp. It's probably the speaker.

 

[Mugre]

Your description seems real, but I was going by what an audio engineer told me a long time ago.

I was told this oft repeated myth by a music store salesman around 1975. He was trying to talk me out of a "W" folded horn. "The audience at the front won't hear you because you have to be 32 (or some such number) feet from the cabinet because bass waves need room to develop." An acoustician with a degree in physics straightened me out in about '93 when I brought him in to help me "tame" a room In which I was having excessive feedback trouble. Like I said, you were right about what is being heard but wrong about the cause.

Mugre

 

[BarfanyShart]

It's probably been said dozens of time in this thread, but (1) a little folding amp stand with a little tilt will go a long way to improving the quality and projection of the bass, (2) turning the lows down will, paradoxically, help you turn up and increase the presence of the low end out in the crowd, and help you hear yourself onstage, and (3) with a small combo (I'm a hardcore small combo guy) think about your amp as a stage monitor and always run you DI to the board - it always sounds good and very controllable.

 

[Hambone70]

l
Yep, A stand and the HPF in the Zoom will do you good.

Let us know how it goes.

If I use the HPF in the Zoom, won't that HP the signal going to the board? Don't I just want to HP to my combo as a monitor, and give the PA guy a full-range signal?

 

[drumvsbass]

I'll say the words that no one wants to say. (unless someone has said it already)

'Turn down the bass' as in 'the bass knob' on your amp.

I often set the volume of the amp with the bass literally off, and then turn the bass up until it's right for the room (Through F.O.H. if i can). Old school HPF, using the bass knob as a low shelf. Does depend on the amp, but the case of these rumble amps, other peoples suggestions of thickening your sound with the low mid knob as opposed to the bass knob is on point as well if you're gonna push the amp.

 

[byacey]

That’s what I did at the last gig. But I don’t think much low end was getting out to the crowd. I could just barely hear enough of me, and it was actually nice to hear the monitors clearly. I think the rest of the band appreciated that, too.

You need to get out on the floor to actually hear your bass level. What you hear on the stage can be very, very different than what the audience hears.

 

[Jack]

Come to think of it, is there any reason that I can't use an audio interface as a preamp, as long as I can get USB power into the back?

One of my favorite rigs was a Presonus Studio Channel > QSC 1602 > 1 (or 2 if I was feeling luxurious) Dr Bass 2460 cabs. It's the kind of thing that you could do with a nice clean preamp such as a Grace into a FRFR cabinet now but back then it was just a big, glorious dinosaur. It was like playing bass into a hifi system.

Can you use an interface? Yes, but it's not ideal. There are plenty of channel strips that will give you that kind of tone though.