Live sound solution for excessive bass stage volume?

[Gravedigger Dav]

First sentence is correct. Second sentence about why is mostly wrong. Our ears don't hear wavelengths, they hear frequency, the changes in air pressure that move in waves PAST our ears. We perceive the change no matter where we are along the wave path. If our ears needed distance for the wave to develop, no headphone would work below about 600hz (a wavelength of something like 2 inches).

Why does it sound different in the room vs. 3 feet from the amp? The ratio of direct sound vs room sound. The room affects the sound through modes (where wavelength does matter) and through the acoustic effects of its size, shape and reflectivity. Air and crowd absorption also play into it. The further out into the room, the more room and less direct sound and obviously vice versa.

Agree that decoupling from the floor and a tunable HPF are good first steps along with an understanding that what's good on stage may not be good in the audience and vice versa.

Mugre

Your description seems real, but I was going by what an audio engineer told me a long time ago.

 

[Chickenwheels]

View attachment 3729605

Don’t Rumbles have a fixed HPF built in?

 

[dkelley]

It is a bad way to think about it because it prevents you from understanding how it works and how to fix problems when they occur.

Speaker directionality is a real thing, as are room effects, reflections, standing waves, bass traps, etc.

Yes, I know. But it's better than the OP and others who are learning about stage sound thinking what you hear on stage is what they hear in the audience.

I've found through life that it's sometimes enough to get someone to understand the end result, more or less, and approximately how to resolve it ...

....(lower bass on amp, change it's aim/position on stage, adjust your LPF, turn up mids and highs on amp (the original and fairly effective solution back in the day), use independently EQed DI into mains, etc).....

...without the need to understand the details of why ....

....(for example, standing waves (a huge deal for bass and how it relates to room position of amp, bassist, and audience, and so forth... let alone getting into bass traps etc), phase, early reflections and their effect on EQ and tone of the higher frequency instruments, and on and on).

Hence my point.

But yes, of course you are correct... I just don't see the need to confuse anyone with minute details and the laws of physics, which gets into very deep discussions and is unlikely to end up with a true, thorough understanding by everyone.

Cheers

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Here's a physics experiment, then, to test the hypothesis that you need to be about a wavelength away from a speaker to hear the sound from that speaker.

1. stick an earbud in your ear.
2. Play some music, and listen.

Audible frequencies all have a wavelength of at least a centimeter or two (A440 is closer to a meter), and your ear canal is probably more like 25mm. So, if you can hear anything, then we've gotta reject the hypothesis.

There are other factors at work. And perhaps I didn't state what I meant well. Yes, the sound on the stage is there, but the further out the sound goes, the more the room affects the sound and the more the pressure builds on itself. I'm not an audio engineer, but going on what I understood when it was explained to me.
Perhaps you can explain why the volume gets louder the further away from the speakers you get.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Have you ever used headphones? If wavelength mattered you wouldn't be able to hear waves longer than an inch through them.

Stop pedaling this long disproven myth.

I'll ignore you snark and let you know some others, more articulate than you, explained it to me. What has yet to be explained, however, is why volume increases with distance with lower frequencies and not so much with higher frequencies.

 

[Stumbo]

How far do you (OP) usually stand away from your amp?

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Don’t Rumbles have a fixed HPF built in?

Supposedly. I can't imagine it would be effective enough to tame a boomy room, though.

On the other hand, the Broughton is a game changer. And it's adjustable.

 

[two fingers]

Yep. But it’s still a good idea to start with some quality backline kit. “Some” amps are great until you start gigging. You can keep fiddling about trying to “fix” things or just start with something better. An accessible 100 watt combo just says “boomy low mids when loud” to me, pretty much what the OP’s problem sounds like. The PA system is basic. The gigs aren’t crazy loud by the sound of it. Why not get an amp that’ll give you clarity and presence without relying on the PA and a stack of accessories?

His claim is that "loud" is the problem, not "boomy". But he might he confusing the two, I suppose.

 

[lz4005]

What has yet to be explained, however, is why volume increases with distance with lower frequencies and not so much with higher frequencies.

It doesn't, as long as you keep your ears in line with the speakers and control for room effects like the sound bouncing off of walls.

 

[jeff7bass]

OK, let's back up. Everybody take a breath. There's something missing here.

If he has to turn the bass down on a relatively small combo to keep from drowning the stage in bass, I'm going to need clarification on a couple of things.

1) Based on context, I'm guessing you guys are a kind of quiet band?

2) Wjat is the construction of the stage? It seems to me your rig has "coupled" to the stage. And the stage itself is becoming a big, booming sub. If that's the case, you need to isolate it from the stage. There are special pads that do this. Before spending the money on that, I would try a gig with a couple of folded towels under your rig. That will help some.

If that's not it, there's another acoustic issue going on. It could just be a boomy room. As such, you're on the right track with the HPF.

3) What kind of PA do you have? What kind of mains speakers? If they can handle some bass (and the vast majority of modern speakers can), you can still take your rig and simply line out of it to the PA. Then you can turn down the rig on stage and all three (stage rig and two mains) will divide the job of filling the room with bass.

The band isn't very loud and his sound doesn't cut through the mix. It's his amp. It's limited. That's why I suggested the vertical 2x8 cab and the vintage to modern Ashdown OriginAL amp. More clarity, punch and tone without the mud. Small footprint, less low-end bleed. More clean power if needed. He could probably get 150 bucks on a trade-in so that would help.

 

[drumvsbass]

View attachment 3729231



Problem solved!

The solution to all of life's problems.
Don't take this at all in the wrong way, but I really hate you.
This rig is like showing a coke head a pile of blow and giving them a straw.

 

[Chickenwheels]

His claim is that "loud" is the problem, not "boomy". But he might he confusing the two, I suppose.

From OP:
The problem is when I crank the Rumble to a decent volume, the bass swamps the stage, goes all boomy, and nobody can hear the monitors clearly.
Sounds like a classic “cranked little combo amp” hot mess to me. And “bass” is probably more “low-mid mud”.
That’s a tiddly amp for a live band setting. If the OP is wanting volume and fidelity at gig volumes he’d be challenged with this amp imho.

 

[NathOBX]

Turn up the low mids, i find it adds definition without being boomy.

 

[Ross W. Lovell]

I’m currently playing a P Bass through a Rumble 100. There is plenty of volume for the gigs we’re doing, although I’m not a fan of the tone, which I describe as “cardboard”. I realize I need an amp/cab or combo upgrade. Or do I?

Only the vocals are going through the PA, and everyone uses floor wedges, which are also vocals only. The problem is when I crank the Rumble to a decent volume, the bass swamps the stage, goes all boomy, and nobody can hear the monitors clearly. My only solution at the last gig was to turn the bass down, which meant very little bass was getting out to FOH. I just ordered a Broughton HPF to help, but I don’t think that’s the only solution.

So I’m thinking that the bass has to get off the stage. The current PA isn’t beefy enough to DI the bass straight from a preamp or model to the mixer.

So how can I clean up the stage volume without putting the bass through the PA? I like the idea of running a modeling preamp like the new POD Go straight to the PA. So rather than buying a better bass amp/cab or combo, I could spend the cash on adding a powered sub to the PA. The mixer only has a single aux send, so everyone has to listen to the same vocals. I can’t put the bass through the monitors.

Any solutions appreciated!

When was the last time you had a hearing test?

Possible you are overcompensating because of hearing loss?

 

[sawzalot]

My goodness this thread has degenerated. We're arguing over well-known acoustic principles. The bottom line is you have a fairly classic problem with some fairly well-known solutions ranging from the very cheap to very expensive:

Cheap: Buy an amp stand. This may help a little but probably won't help a lot.

Very expensive: Buy a new PA with a good digital mixer, speaker processor, line array tops, cardiod subs tuned to the room and stage you're playing, and in-ear monitoring. This will totally fix your issue but cost a ton of $$.

Your solution is somewhere in between. I would probably buy an inexpensive digital mixer, a sub with a crossover, and use the tools in the mixer (eq on the monitor channel(s), gates, HPF on any live mics that need it) to control your stage wash. It'll likely fix 80-90% of the problems at a reasonable cost. If this is too expensive, use some of the less expensive options, which might not fix all the issue but might fix enough of it.

Oh, and if you want a new amp, do that too--but it probably won't fix the problem. You'll still have stage wash to deal with whether it's made by a cheap amp or an expensive one.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

It doesn't, as long as you keep your ears in line with the speakers and control for room effects like the sound bouncing off of walls.

I think you misunderstood my question. Let me try again, likely I wasn't communicating well. In an earlier post I mentioned the first time I played an SVT through 2 8x10 cabs, the volume on stage seemed to be correct; however, the manage asked me to turn down because I was knocking plaques off the wall in a banquet room on the other side of the kitchen. The kitchen was to the right of the stage. Hotel Restaurant kitchens are quite large rooms, but that being 48 years ago, I don't recall the dimensions. The banquet room was on the other side of the kitchen. Why would it be so loud and with so much SPL that it was knocking things off the wall? Said wall was shared with the other side of the kitchen.

 

[DavC]

this is a repeat .. but ,... decouple your amp from the stage ... getting it up, or tilted back, off the stage ... most stages are hollow = boom

i would have my amp aimed slightly at my head , but it still needs to project towards your audience ...

the Rumble 100 does Not have a Extension speaker jack output ... if you wanted to ad another cab/amp on the other side of the stage .. that would help for sure , as you would have more power & speakers moving some more air , but it would need to be a ' powered cab' or another combo amp of some kind ..!!??!!

each stage will have it's on ' boomy ' frequency sweet spot ... find it .! drop that freq down ... make note for future reference ...

i like a tilt back amp stand ... i use this fairly cheap one from Sweetwater ...

Gator Frameworks GFWGTRAMP100 Collapsible Combo Amp Stand

 

[castlev]

So, is there any reason you can't bring the volume up to the point you like where the crowd can "feel" the bass, then roll down the highs and mids so your actual tone isn't as loud?

Alternatively, use an EQ pedal if the amp has a loop and crank the lowest 1 or 2 eq sliders, leaving everything else flat, and lower the pedal's master volume to compensate.

 

[lz4005]

I think you misunderstood my question. Let me try again, likely I wasn't communicating well. In an earlier post I mentioned the first time I played an SVT through 2 8x10 cabs, the volume on stage seemed to be correct; however, the manage asked me to turn down because I was knocking plaques off the wall in a banquet room on the other side of the kitchen. The kitchen was to the right of the stage. Hotel Restaurant kitchens are quite large rooms, but that being 48 years ago, I don't recall the dimensions. The banquet room was on the other side of the kitchen. Why would it be so loud and with so much SPL that it was knocking things off the wall? Said wall was shared with the other side of the kitchen.

Sound bounces off walls and ceilings and floors and bodies and interacts with room shapes. It has little or nothing to do with distance.

 

[bigswifty1]

Like many others here, I have done many hundreds of gigs in a situation like yours where the PA and monitors carry vocals and nothing else. I don't think a Rumble 100 would cut it power-wise for me in those situations. Obviously it depends on what other instruments are happening in the band and also what levels of volume discipline your guitarist(s) has, but even in a bass, drums, guitar three-piece I don't believe I could manage with a 100w Rumble. Sorry!

Without knowing your band situation, makeup, genre and volume it's hard to get specific, but as a general comment on any band situation involving one or more electric guitars, I think your idea of an HPF, while a good one (I use one), is at most gonna be papering over the cracks of lack of power. I think your best plan would be ..... actually nearly always is .... plenty of power, more than you'll ever need, driven lightly. In other words, headroom. Bigggg fan of headroom. Grit, grind, dirt .... all those things are easy to add if you need them, but without power, and gobs of it, I think you're shovellin' the brown up an incline from the getgo.

Mike

I’m currently playing a P Bass through a Rumble 100. There is plenty of volume for the gigs we’re doing, although I’m not a fan of the tone, which I describe as “cardboard”. I realize I need an amp/cab or combo upgrade. Or do I?

Only the vocals are going through the PA, and everyone uses floor wedges, which are also vocals only. The problem is when I crank the Rumble to a decent volume, the bass swamps the stage, goes all boomy, and nobody can hear the monitors clearly. My only solution at the last gig was to turn the bass down, which meant very little bass was getting out to FOH. I just ordered a Broughton HPF to help, but I don’t think that’s the only solution.

So I’m thinking that the bass has to get off the stage. The current PA isn’t beefy enough to DI the bass straight from a preamp or model to the mixer.

So how can I clean up the stage volume without putting the bass through the PA? I like the idea of running a modeling preamp like the new POD Go straight to the PA. So rather than buying a better bass amp/cab or combo, I could spend the cash on adding a powered sub to the PA. The mixer only has a single aux send, so everyone has to listen to the same vocals. I can’t put the bass through the monitors.

Any solutions appreciated!