Low Down Sound 15/6.5 Cab

[Chef]

OK.
Clearly we hear what we want out of DB differently.
There is no sizzle as if from rounds with DB. There is no click if you're playing well.
But, I do want to hear strings, air, fingers, an airy midrange, great high end detail and solid lows.

If you think you can do that with any one 15" driver; you think differently than I do, and, that's fine.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

OK.
Clearly we hear what we want out of DB differently.
There is no sizzle as if from rounds with DB. There is no click if you're playing well.
But, I do want to hear strings, air, fingers, an airy midrange, great high end detail and solid lows.

If you think you can do that with any one 15" driver; you think differently than I do, and, that's fine.

I see what you are saying, just IME I hear a lot of that string and finger noise in the upper mids and lower treble range.

 

[greenboy]

Try listening to a solo contrabass recording without anything but woofers. For that matter, try that with almost any acoustic instrument. Get the picture?

Unlike say electric bass there is less sustained content that goes even into the midrange very high. But there is indeed a fair amount of higher-partials attack content and instrument body and string cues. Which is why the enclosure used to reinforce or reproduce DB should to have a decent HF section - and not just for ON-AXIS. That's largely for better off-axis treble.

 

[KJung]

Try listening to a solo contrabass recording without anything but woofers. For that matter, try that with almost any acoustic instrument. Get the picture?

Unlike say electric bass there is less sustained content that goes even into the midrange very high. But there is indeed a fair amount of higher-partials attack content and instrument body and string cues. Which is why the enclosure used to reinforce or reproduce DB should to have a decent HF section - and not just for ON-AXIS. That's largely for better off-axis treble.

DB is a funny beast. I've heard guys sound just GREAT with everything from a little GKMB150 (sealed one way 12), to the Acme stuff with the tweeter turned off, all way through a modern, 2 way cab with a tweeter. SO much depends on the tone goal, the pickup (it's just amazing how that can change things), and of course, the bass itself.

For most DB tone goals, I would imagine that the top end all the way up to that 5K or so that these mid drives seem to achieve should be plenty. However, like Chef, some like that more 'metalic' tone of an actual tweeter.

Hard to generalize, but I would in NO way say that the 15/6.5's or 12/6.5's are 'not appropriate for DB' in general, especially if you like it woody and big and organic.

IMO, based on hanging with way too many doghousers

 

[Chef]

I'd hardly call my DB tone metallic; and metallic wouldn't be what I wanted from a horn for that.

I do want good, clean shiny top end though, maybe up to 6-10khz.
I don't want big string midrange like the 18Sound delivers-which is lots; or like the 3015 delivers-which is less than the 18Sound.

To me, DB needs a natural scoop in the middle to accurately deliver "air and wood." It's one of the most frustrating things I've done: amplify DB.

To put it in more understandable-maybe-terms:
The Epi UL410, to me, has a big low end, a nice shiny top end, and somewhat of a hole in the mids. Not bad, but it's there. Some folks don't like ti for electric for that reason. It works ok for DB. Not great, but ok; it's a much bigger box than I need.

The LDS 2x8+horn works excellent. Nice extended low end, but not overpowering depending what you feed it. The long throw 8's top out at ~2khz. The horn/crossover kick in about 1.8khz...but, both of these aren't working their best at the end of their range, creating somehwat of a natural scoop in the middle. The horn is strong, shiny, doesn't break up in it's lower range; and, I generally run it at just under 9 o'clock.

 

[rpsands]

Why not just use a full range cab and scoop the mids?

 

[KJung]

I'd hardly call my DB tone metallic; and metallic wouldn't be what I wanted from a horn for that.

I do want good, clean shiny top end though, maybe up to 6-10khz.
I don't want big string midrange like the 18Sound delivers-which is lots; or like the 3015 delivers-which is less than the 18Sound.

To me, DB needs a natural scoop in the middle to accurately deliver "air and wood." It's one of the most frustrating things I've done: amplify DB.

To put it in more understandable-maybe-terms:
The Epi UL410, to me, has a big low end, a nice shiny top end, and somewhat of a hole in the mids. Not bad, but it's there. Some folks don't like ti for electric for that reason. It works ok for DB. Not great, but ok; it's a much bigger box than I need.

The LDS 2x8+horn works excellent. Nice extended low end, but not overpowering depending what you feed it. The long throw 8's top out at ~2khz. The horn/crossover kick in about 1.8khz...but, both of these aren't working their best at the end of their range, creating somehwat of a natural scoop in the middle. The horn is strong, shiny, doesn't break up in it's lower range; and, I generally run it at just under 9 o'clock.

If your particular DB tone goal requires a dip in the upper mids, then +1, these cabs would NOT be for you. They are pretty darn even up there, although that Faital driver does emulate a two way traditional woofer/tweeter a bit.

By 'metalic', I meant 'not paper cone', but rather that very upper treble thing that comes from a horn type tweeter. Interestingly, most of the DB guys I know avoid that like the plague, but again, it just depends what kind of bass you have, technique, tone goals, pickups, etc., etc.

 

[rpsands]

If your particular DB tone goal requires a dip in the upper mids, then +1, these cabs would NOT be for you unless you have a parametric eq and some patience

fixed!

 

[peterpalmieri]

Take the DB debate and throw it out the window.

When you take the bass, strings, pickup, preamp, amp and playing style into account......

There are no rules and what works for one guy totally sux for another...Change one link in that chain and the cab that doesn't work kills or vice versa....

 

[KJung]

Take the DB debate and throw it out the window.

When you take the bass, strings, pickup, preamp, amp and playing style into account......

There are no rules and what works for one guy totally sux for another...Change one link in that chain and the cab that doesn't work kills or vice versa....

That's kind of what I was trying to say, in response to an earlier poster who thought 'these cabs might not work for DB'.

 

[greenboy]

I don't want big string midrange like the 18Sound delivers-which is lots; or like the 3015 delivers-which is less than the 18Sound.

I'd suggest once again that getting the crossover honed in correctly is a large part of whether that works or not. The midrange driver itself is hugely affected by passive crossover design. I suspect Passinwind would likely agree, as he's played his EUB, which has a similar tonal profile, through a fair number of crossover iterations.

 

[greenboy]

If I was trying to suit one of the many DB tonal profiles with a fEarful, for starters I'd tune the enclosure quite a bit lower so that the LF slope dropped off slower, but started dropping off higher. This would help tame resonances and better suit the change of balance between fundamental and lower overtones.

 

[kittyboy]

Interesting discussion.

In the quest for a good/great cab for doubling I've also become interested in the wizzy m-line 12, but have not yet heard one. Compared to the 15/6 I'm guessing the wizzy would have much less low end grunt, less treble extension and substantially less SPL...is that about right?

 

[peterpalmieri]

Interesting discussion.

In the quest for a good/great cab for doubling I've also become interested in the wizzy m-line 12, but have not yet heard one. Compared to the 15/6 I'm guessing the wizzy would have much less low end grunt, less treble extension and substantially less SPL...is that about right?

The quest for a good/great cab for doubling

At least for me I still can't find one! I've owned a whole heck of allot of cabinets and I can say with much clarity that the EA VL208 is it when it comes to a DB cabinet for me. The VL108s aren't bad and are my second choice (I own two of each). I haven't had the opportunity to play an M line wizzy but I hear they are the next best thing. I had a Wizzy 10 and just didn't get it, to mid focused of a cab for DB or electric.

In any case I DO NOT like how the VL208 cabinet sounds with my Jazz style basses, Which is my preferred electric bass (I think I'm in Ken's camp with my electric tone). If I can do a doubling gig and bring a P bass as my electric I'm ok with it though. I really like my EA NL210 for electric and don't think it sounds very good with the upright.

I guess it all comes down to the tone we hear in our head and how particular we want to be with our tone on any particular gig.

This all has little to do with the 15/6 cabinet but I do very much like the 3 way design in the VL cabinets for my DB playing and I'd guess these cabs would be a nice solution for a doubler assuming you don't want that really grindy 70s funk sound that I wasn't able to hear Ken coax from any of the fEarful inspired LDS designs...

EDIT: The VL108 stack is a nice compromise that does the best for doubling

 

[bassplayer7770]

I think I mentioned in this thread before that I was getting some buzz from my cab especially at higher volumes. I removed the head and grill numerous times, and that wasn't the problem. It seemed like the noise was coming from the general vicinity of the 6ND410. I tried turning the attenuator all the way down to see if the buzzing decreased, but it didn't make a noticeable difference. Finally, today I got around to removing the 6ND410, and I quickly noticed a couple cracks.

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I've contacted Don, and I'm confident he will take care of me.

While I was removing speakers, I also removed the 3015LF and took a couple pics of the inside of my cab.

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You can see the speaker input jacks, the attenuator, the crossover, and the separate area where the 6ND410 is housed.

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This pic shows a closer view of the attenuator, crossover, and the 6ND410 compartment.

In case anybody wants to know what the inside of Don's cabs look like...

 

[dug dog]

Finally, today I got around to removing the 6ND410, and I quickly noticed a couple cracks.

Yikes! How on earth...?

 

[KJung]

Yikes! How on earth...?

+1 Holy Moly. I assume Don will send you a replacement, and hopefully, the company with reimburse him. Looks like it might have really got pounded in shipping or something. Bummer.

 

[bassplayer7770]

Looks like it might have really got pounded in shipping or something. Bummer.

That would be my guess.

 

[bassplayer7770]

Don suggested removing the 6ND410 from the cab (and making sure the wires weren't touching), then playing through it to see if my buzzing issues disappeared. The buzzing issues were non-existent. Don said he'd have a new speaker sent to me as well as a small check to pay for shipping my current 6ND410 back to him. I'd say that qualifies as excellent customer service.

 

[Horny Toad]

...I'd say that qualifies as excellent customer service.

Absolutely. I spoke with Don earlier today about building a 1515/66 for me. He'll be starting it in a few weeks, and he mentioned that Ken will be the first to take it for a test drive.