Low Down Sound Cab Club started!

[KJung]

45 looks a bit more smooth and even I guess (that more gentle slope all the way down). I surely wouldn't want any more 'upper bass' in that small cab that Ryan has... whew... that thing is a punch monster! I assume the higher tuning would make it even moreso, but not sure how to exactly translate those curves into tone.

 

[greenboy]

45 runs out of steam in the passband earlier, can't handle quite as much power. Therefore, trying to EQ more bass into the passband area is self-defeating at higher levels - it just uses up valuable excursion and limits the cab earlier. The 55 Hz version can actually handle more power as long as one doesn't EQ a craploadbunch of 30 Hz in or something ; }

The issue of "unloading" below tuning is not too big an issue here as electric bass on its lowest notes typically doesn't make much fundamental content, focusing on the octave overtones and up. Thus, tuning for content that isn't there isn't so efficient. Tuning for the area where content is significant is.

The 3015 doesn't easily do midbass hump, Ryan, but that 45 Hz tuning is throwing away advantages in the midbass, to the tune of 2 to 3 dB when cabs are driven fully.

 

[KJung]

45 runs out of steam in the passband earlier, can't handle quite as much power. Therefore, trying to EQ more bass into the passband area is self-defeating at higher levels - it just uses up valuable excursion and limits the cab earlier.

The issue of "unloading" below tuning is not too big an issue here as electric bass on its lowest notes typically doesn't make much fundamental content, focusing on the octave overtones and up. Thus, tuning for content that isn't there isn't so efficient. Tuning for the area where content is significant is.

The 3015 doesn't easily do midbass hump, Ryan, but that 45 Hz tuning is throwing away advantages in the midbass.

Interesting! That cab just sounded like a punchy monster to me, but again, I guess it is all about the 'mix and match' etc., chops, instrument, etc. I'd like to hear another one with that higher tuning, but man, the low end of that cab was just perfect to my ears.... tight, but also plenty deep (at least given how little the box was).

 

[greenboy]

Interesting! That cab just sounded like a punchy monster to me, but again, I guess it is all about the 'mix and match' etc., chops, instrument, etc. I'd like to hear another one with that higher tuning, but man, the low end of that cab was just perfect to my ears.... tight, but also plenty deep (at least given how little the box was).

There's no point in throwing away non-boomy midbass potential and power handling and SPL. If one wants less bass they can always dial the bass back.

If this cab was for low-tuning basses then it would be wise to live with the diminished figure or 45 and its gutting of midbass - but then, if it was for low-tuning basses it would be wiser to use the driver that delivers for that application: 3015LF.

 

[KJung]

There's no point in throwing away non-boomy midbass potential and power handling and SPL. If one wants less bass they can always dial the bass back.

Makes sense.

 

[greenboy]

As for midrange drivers, two of the Faitals make good sense for a tweeterless 3012LF-based cab if you aren't concerned with off-axis response and find their response curves meet your ideal voicing. The W6N8-120 gives a nice high peak ON-AXIS in lower tweeter range. The M5N12-80 places that bump a little lower. Either has its own "scoop", a little more exaggerated in the 5" driver. Those are more obvious voicings and for cabs without a tweeter and with no EQ may be preferred.

Once EQ is introduced though, the Em Alpha 6A is a little flatter in the passband though (and the 18 Sound 6ND410 moreso, if padded back), which makes them more likely to relfect EQ at any frequency well, and to integrate with tweeters better... And without a tweeter they extend off-axis response and bandwidth. If one wants a scoop or peak somewhere and have decent EQ facilities they do well with that.

Once you begin to talk about 3015LF-based cabs though, none of those cones can keep up, unless you want a considerably darker voicing with little bite.

 

[greenboy]

Here's an example of what a lot of older Eminence woofer designs look like in simulation, as well as a lot of other drivers we might use as examples of fat-sounding "Old School" formulas.

The newer designs are less boomy, tighter sounding even when EQ'd to have that midbass hump. The newer designs tend to be more articulate and more subtle aspects revealed about their midrange character. The 3015 is a more extreme case than the 3015LF whose response I find to be more shapeable in typical enclosure sizes.

 

[Jared Lash]

When I replied to Don that I would likely prefer a more modular setup (one cab for small gigs, two for larger) his response was that maybe I'd want a cab with 1x15 LF Neo and the 18 sound 6.5" driver that would end up 20x14x16 which sounds similar to the fEarful 15/6 but (I believe) in a smaller package.

My questions would be:

(1) If those are different dimensions than what Greenboy is specifying, what would be the effect of the changes?
(2) What cab would I add to this when I need to move more air? I was thinking of a single 1x15 with the 3015LF with a lowpass filter.
(3) What heads do guys use with the fEarful 15/6. The only one I remember seeing mentioned was the Carvin BX1200 which I like alright, but wouldn't be my choice tonally.

 

[rpsands]

I would (and did) get the fEarful version. The size doesn't really add much weight and it allows the driver to get a couple db more in the low end (2db or so IIRC, at the lowest). I can one-hand my fEarful into the car from the jam room with no problem and I'm not especially buff or anything.

I would just add another 15/6 personally. The 115LF with the low pass filter is good, but:
-you can't really use it on its own well
-it's hard to sell it nearly as easily if you ever want a change
-it's not going to be any smaller or appreciably lighter
-it'll only be about 80-100 bucks cheaper for all these disadvantages

I looked at that option a lot and just don't find it to be cost-effective.

 

[rpsands]

Regarding amps:

I have driven my fEarful-style 15/6 with a Gk 1001 RB II and an EA Iamp 800. Both are plenty loud (but the 1001 rb II is a bit louder curiously, think it's the boost's "even order harmonics" making it seem louder).

I also tried it with my Neopak when I had that and it was kinda anemic, but sounded nice.

 

[greenboy]

When I replied to Don that I would likely prefer a more modular setup (one cab for small gigs, two for larger) his response was that maybe I'd want a cab with 1x15 LF Neo and the 18 sound 6.5" driver that would end up 20x14x16 which sounds similar to the fEarful 15/6 but (I believe) in a smaller package.

My questions would be:

(1) If those are different dimensions than what Greenboy is specifying, what would be the effect of the changes?

Less balls, even with the most optimum tunings the smaller you go the less low end extension is available. Fearfuls are designed to give the octave overtone of a low B equal presentation with other notes' octave overtones. You go too small and even a standard-tuned E doesn't have as much support for the octave overtone.

It's all tradeoffs, and after a lot of listening that's where I draw the line (especially since I know that many gigs won't have PA support and that for some songs I like it to sound BIG). That translates into a 3015LF in a 3.8 cf box NET for a low B or A below that, or a 3015 NON-LF in a 3.0 cf NET box for low E with the occasional drop D. If I had to do the subway for gigs I might move that line, but even with my sickly physical prowess {;} and my most subcompact transportation I am easily able to deal with an enclosure of either size and when I get to the gig or jam I appreciate the greater potential.

...A 3012LF box wattage can give the same tonal potential and LF reach in a smaller package if this is one's primary concern - and just make sure you have something with more watts to compensate for the lesser sensitivity. Two of them give compact modularity and a hella lot SPL.

(3) What heads do guys use with the fEarful 15/6. The only one I remember seeing mentioned was the Carvin BX1200 which I like alright, but wouldn't be my choice tonally.

Seems to me that unless you are incapable of operating the EQ - or want tube overdrive - that it's a head that has incredible flexibility. Others have also been mentioned in the thread - I tend to recommend ones that can give at least 500 watts @ 8 ohms, per cab. The EA iAmp Pro, ferinstance, the Puma 1000, etc etc etc.

 

[Mystic Michael]

...A 3012LF box wattage can give the same tonal potential and LF reach in a smaller package if this is one's primary concern - and just make sure you have something with more watts to compensate for the lesser sensitivity. Two of them give compact modularity and a hella lot SPL.

GB,

If I may jump in here for a moment: I have a pair of 3-way 1x12 cabs on the drawing board with Don right now - featuring the 3012LF, the Alpha 6-A, plus a 1-inch Selenium tweeter (make & model TBD). Dimensions will be 18"W x 24"H x 18"D - IF Don can accommodate my request for vertical slot ports along both sides (like the Genz Benz NEO-X 212T) at that width. Otherwise they'll be 20"W.

I'm a Nemesis owner from way back, and am partial to the Nemesis RS700 head for pairing with these babies. The RS700 is rated 550 watts RMS @ 4 ohms, which should translate into 275 available watts per cab.

In your opinion, is that gonna be enough juice to drive 'em to medium-high volume for a small-to-midsized club gig? FYI, I'm not looking for insane SPLs - just a big, smooth, articulate, filling presence for a moderately-sized venue.

Thoughts?

MM

 

[Ryan Mohr]

Clips all sounded good to me Ryan! I'm not sure that tuning in the low end is that big of a deal. However, as is the case with most stuff, some mixes and matches work great to immediately give you the tone you are looking for, and others don't, given the way the inherent voicing of each piece of gear is set, and also the frequency centers and especially the Q of the EQ on the head, combined with the voicing of the bass.

Quite frankly, that's why, even though I love Don's work and have loved MANY of his cabs, I'm still playing the 'off the rack stuff'. From playing many of these 'custom cabs' through the years (and a lot of them recently!), all these little tweaks and size changes and crossover changes and driver changes give each cab its own personality that can move the tone the 'right or wrong' direction for any given player. I wouldn't really know where to begin to 'design a cab', so I personally don't go this route.

However, with a relatively evenly voiced head with powerful EQ (like the F500 I've been using as a test head for these cabs), I'm able to get the low end sounding pretty much the same on all these cabs. It's the top end that is tricky. There is no way you can 'dial the grind in' if it isn't there (yeah, you can use pedals and such, but that's not my thing, and never seems to really give you the real deal). And, it is very difficult to sculpt a different top end (i.e., grindy versus smooth and clean versus sizzly versus bright) even with a couple bands of EQ up there, if the cab is voiced a certain way.

Also, it's interesting how different these various mid drivers sound, and also the VERY different tone you get between running a speaker like the 3015 full range, versus cutting off that upper mid response and shunting it to a mid driver.

I guarantee the 'sound in your head' can be delivered by both that cab and that head. I have no idea if you will be able to easily get there with that exact combination, since literally no one on the planet has heard it but you... that's the magic and also the risk of 'custom' designs and also 'mix and matching' heads with cabs.

Edit: While all your clips were more similar than different, and given my Sadowsky with newer SS rounds is more bright and aggressive and grindy than your bass, clip 5 to me sounded the closest to the clip I posted of your cab.... interesting that was the Fender combo flat!

Thanks, I wasn't sure the clips came out all that good because of my cheap recording set-up.

I think with both the Hartke and LDS not being particularly forceful around 150-200 Hz I was naturally disappointed, but I haven't played with my band yet so I will certainly post up after I have done that.

Yeah, I was surprised at how bright my clips were considering I'm playing an alder/RW J bass with dead rounds into a tubey head and into a tweeterless 115. Do you think the Fender combo sounds boomy?

Depends how much you cut the bridge pickup by!

You keep complaining of a lack of low midrange but one of the distinctive things about a P vs a J is the increase thump in the lower midrange. That's why I'm pointing out that as you prefer your tone through a more coloured cab (the Fender) then maybe you need to change the tone at source if using something that's a bit more transparent.

Alex

If anything, I usually cut a little of the neck pickup and FWIW, I have two P basses and I'm still missing the thickness and fatness.

55 Hz looks a lot better to me. Also, the tuning on my cab was 48 Hz, my mistake.

45 looks a bit more smooth and even I guess (that more gentle slope all the way down). I surely wouldn't want any more 'upper bass' in that small cab that Ryan has... whew... that thing is a punch monster! I assume the higher tuning would make it even moreso, but not sure how to exactly translate those curves into tone.

I'm starting to think that your F500, which from what I have heard is very punchy and low mid present, filled in the "hole" in the LDS, while the LH500, which is generally shy in that area because of the Fender tonestack, exaggerated that hole.

45 runs out of steam in the passband earlier, can't handle quite as much power. Therefore, trying to EQ more bass into the passband area is self-defeating at higher levels - it just uses up valuable excursion and limits the cab earlier. The 55 Hz version can actually handle more power as long as one doesn't EQ a craploadbunch of 30 Hz in or something ; }

The issue of "unloading" below tuning is not too big an issue here as electric bass on its lowest notes typically doesn't make much fundamental content, focusing on the octave overtones and up. Thus, tuning for content that isn't there isn't so efficient. Tuning for the area where content is significant is.

The 3015 doesn't easily do midbass hump, Ryan, but that 45 Hz tuning is throwing away advantages in the midbass, to the tune of 2 to 3 dB when cabs are driven fully.

Do you think it would really be worth it sending it back to Don to have it tuned to 55-60 Hz?

 

[rpsands]

It's possible that Don could just send you a new shelf to put in - it really depends on how he did it as to whether it'd be easy to change. It might be a matter of pulling the driver out, pulling a few screws and putting a new shelf in. If that's the case you could do it yourself.

If it's a new piece of wood and some screws I would say go for it. Shipping it there and back would be a waste imho.

Even the modified tuning is not going to get you the sound you want, which is clearly a boost at a frequency no amount of tuning is going to change.

EQ pedal

 

[rpsands]

I'm goin to stop right now and say: Try it with a band before you do anything.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

It's possible that Don could just send you a new shelf to put in - it really depends on how he did it as to whether it'd be easy to change. It might be a matter of pulling the driver out, pulling a few screws and putting a new shelf in. If that's the case you could do it yourself.

If it's a new piece of wood and some screws I would say go for it. Shipping it there and back would be a waste imho.

Even the modified tuning is not going to get you the sound you want, which is clearly a boost at a frequency no amount of tuning is going to change.

EQ pedal

Is there a pedal or rackmount that you would recommend?

I'm goin to stop right now and say: Try it with a band before you do anything.

+1, I'm not going to make any rash decisions before I try it with my band a few times. I'm guessing it's going to shine in that setting.

 

[rpsands]

The rack deal would probably wind up costing you enough to justify just buying an amp and reselling the Hartke.

I'd go try out a GEB-7 at GC and see if it does what you want. Boost 120hz, cut 800. They are super cheap and can be found for almost nothing used.

 

[Blues Cat]

He could get very close MM with a 12", it might have to be 18.5"w.

If you go the vertical slot port on a 15" it has to be 21.5"w.

If you look at the vertical ports on mine you can see what a great job Don did with routing into the vertical wood and rounding off all the port exits including rounding the corners of the grill rail, great job.

GB,

If I may jump in here for a moment: I have a pair of 3-way 1x12 cabs on the drawing board with Don right now - featuring the 3012LF, the Alpha 6-A, plus a 1-inch Selenium tweeter (make & model TBD). Dimensions will be 18"W x 24"H x 18"D - IF Don can accommodate my request for vertical slot ports along both sides (like the Genz Benz NEO-X 212T) at that width. Otherwise they'll be 20"W.

I'm a Nemesis owner from way back, and am partial to the Nemesis RS700 head for pairing with these babies. The RS700 is rated 550 watts RMS @ 4 ohms, which should translate into 275 available watts per cab.

In your opinion, is that gonna be enough juice to drive 'em to medium-high volume for a small-to-midsized club gig? FYI, I'm not looking for insane SPLs - just a big, smooth, articulate, filling presence for a moderately-sized venue.

Thoughts?

MM

 

[Mystic Michael]

Thanks for the input, BC. Don certainly does a classy job...

Still awaiting informed opinions re: power requirements for my dual 1x12 mini-stack...

MM

 

[Ryan Mohr]

The rack deal would probably wind up costing you enough to justify just buying an amp and reselling the Hartke.

I'd go try out a GEB-7 at GC and see if it does what you want. Boost 120hz, cut 800. They are super cheap and can be found for almost nothing used.

Since the head was only $350, I don't think I would mind spending $100 on a rackmount graphic EQ. Here are a couple to look at: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...-2Channel-15Band-Graphic-Equalizer?sku=180153 http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/dbx-215-Dual-15Band-Graphic-EQ?sku=183526

I was looking at the GEB-7, but I think 120 Hz might be a little too low. 200 Hz is usually the sweet spot for me. Take a good J bass, boost at 200 Hz and cut at 800 Hz and you will almost always get a good sound IME and IMO.