Low Down Sound Club V3

[Tim C.]

Talked to Don, my LDS 2x12 with two Kappalite 3012HO's will be built soon. Apparently he's moving and that's putting a stall on some cabs.

No mid, no tweeter.

I DON'T NEED NO STINKING TREBLE

P.S. FYI, just to be fair, I ordered and put the 'down' payment at the end of July and was quoted ten weeks. I don't care, but some might.

 

[5StringPocket]

I'd be interested in a review of your twin 3012HO when you get it. The 3012LF is the king of 12" low end but the 3012HO is a stout driver with great sensitivity and solid response between 60-200 Hz where the meat of the tone lies. I've screened a fair number of 12" drivers with WinISD Pro and Eminence Designer deciding what to build next and the 3012LF/3012HO just beat everything else I've looked at. The 3012LF low end is almost a freak of nature but the tradeoff is sensitivity. The 3012HO is not weak sauce at all in the low end although the response drops off quickly below 50Hz. A 4.0 ft3 twin 3012HO tuned to 60 Hz had a sensitivity curve pretty close to a 4.5 ft3 410 loaded with Deltalite 2510's tuned to 55 Hz. With its high midrange sensitivity I wonder if a twin 3012HO cab won't sound more like a 410 cab than a 212? I don't know what the internal volume or tuning for this twin 3012HO cab is but they can handle quite a bit of power (650 watts or more) before reaching excursion limit. That cab should slam.

 

[KJung]

I'd be interested in a review of your twin 3012HO when you get it. The 3012LF is the king of 12" low end but the 3012HO is a stout driver with great sensitivity and solid response between 60-200 Hz where the meat of the tone lies. I've screened a fair number of 12" drivers with WinISD Pro and Eminence Designer deciding what to build next and the 3012LF/3012HO just beat everything else I've looked at. The 3012LF low end is almost a freak of nature but the tradeoff is sensitivity. The 3012HO is not weak sauce at all in the low end although the response drops off quickly below 50Hz. A 4.0 ft3 twin 3012HO tuned to 60 Hz had a sensitivity curve pretty close to a 4.5 ft3 410 loaded with Deltalite 2510's tuned to 55 Hz. With its high midrange sensitivity I wonder if a twin 3012HO cab won't sound more like a 410 cab than a 212? I don't know what the internal volume or tuning for this twin 3012HO cab is but they can handle quite a bit of power (650 watts or more) before reaching excursion limit. That cab should slam.

I've played a couple of 112HO cabs, and one 212HO cab from Don, and they are really nice. You are right, they kind of sound a bit upper mid present and a bit forward and tight (of course, they weren't totally broken in yet either), but they took a bit of low EQ like a sonofagun. Really nice, and the boxes were not that large.

They surely don't need a mid driver... much brighter up there than the 12/6 and 1212/6's that I've played, and really don't even need a tweeter unless you really want sizzle.. plenty bright, and nicely grindy IMO.

 

[jnewmark]

I've played a couple of 112HO cabs, and one 212HO cab from Don, and they are really nice. You are right, they kind of sound a bit upper mid present and a bit forward and tight (of course, they weren't totally broken in yet either), but they took a bit of low EQ like a sonofagun. Really nice, and the boxes were not that large.

They surely don't need a mid driver... much brighter up there than the 12/6 and 1212/6's that I've played, and really don't even need a tweeter unless you really want sizzle.. plenty bright, and nicely grindy IMO.

Out of all the cabs that are either built around the 3015 or the 3012 ( LF or not ), 15/6, 12/6 1212/66, etc. , which one, in your opinion would be the best one cab solution to cut through the mix in an 8 piece horn band, that plays all genres of music, reasonably loud , that you have tried. I know you would be mostly surmising here, but, I think we play similar types of music, so give an educated guess, if you can.

 

[rpsands]

Out of all the cabs that are either built around the 3015 or the 3012 ( LF or not ), 15/6, 12/6 1212/66, etc. , which one, in your opinion would be the best one cab solution to cut through the mix in an 8 piece horn band, that plays all genres of music, reasonably loud , that you have tried. I know you would be mostly surmising here, but, I think we play similar types of music, so give an educated guess, if you can.

If you want to use a pre/power rig and want lots of low end, I'd go with a 15/6.

If you want to use a micro head or something, I'd go with either a 212/6 (for lots of beef) or a 2x12 with 3012HOs for obscene volume.

Just my tuppence, but I don't think you would like he 3012HO cabinet since you're so against the 3015's midrange character IIRC. Sounds like you'd enjoy the 6nd410 better midrange-wise. But I can't say for sure of course.

 

[jnewmark]

If you want to use a pre/power rig and want lots of low end, I'd go with a 15/6.

If you want to use a micro head or something, I'd go with either a 212/6 (for lots of beef) or a 2x12 with 3012HOs for obscene volume.

Just my tuppence, but I don't think you would like he 3012HO cabinet since you're so against the 3015's midrange character IIRC. Sounds like you'd enjoy the 6nd410 better midrange-wise. But I can't say for sure of course.

Thanks for the reply. I was all set to try a Greenboy fEarful 12/6/1, but, sadly , it showed up damaged, unplayable, so I had to send it back and get a refund. Not sure what you mean about the 3015 midrange character and what that has to do with a 3012Ho 212 cab ? I did try a 3015 in a three way cab ( lS 1503 ), and did'nt hear much difference from the stock 15, if that's what you mean. I'm thinking that a 212 loaded with the HO's might give me more of a bite and presence in most of the material we do ( dance floor oriented ), but don't know why Ken is suggesting to do it without tweeter. I do a fair amount of slap and pop, and I like the tone of a tweeter when it comes to that. I would be using a pre/power rig ( BBE 383 and Crown XLS 1000 ) . Bridged, it gives me 1100 watts, but I would never need to use that much on my gigs.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Here is my 2126 I picked up from Don near the end of September. 3012LFs and 6ND410, with 1200Hz RP crossover.

 

[rpsands]

Thanks for the reply. I was all set to try a Greenboy fEarful 12/6/1, but, sadly , it showed up damaged, unplayable, so I had to send it back and get a refund. Not sure what you mean about the 3015 midrange character and what that has to do with a 3012Ho 212 cab ? I did try a 3015 in a three way cab ( lS 1503 ), and did'nt hear much difference from the stock 15, if that's what you mean. I'm thinking that a 212 loaded with the HO's might give me more of a bite and presence in most of the material we do ( dance floor oriented ), but don't know why Ken is suggesting to do it without tweeter. I do a fair amount of slap and pop, and I like the tone of a tweeter when it comes to that. I would be using a pre/power rig ( BBE 383 and Crown XLS 1000 ) . Bridged, it gives me 1100 watts, but I would never need to use that much on my gigs.

I seem to remember you had tried a full range 3015 in something and didn't like it but I might be mixing you up with someone else. The midrange character is pretty similar to my ears.

I think a pair of 3012HOs would be good for that kinda deal. The 18 sound XD125 looks like a really solid horn for that combination but I have not tried it personally. I did find that the 3012HO was not bright enough on top for my tastes, full range.

A pair of 3012LFs and an 18 sound 6nd410 fEarful 1212/6 seems like it might be better though. The 3012HO really feels more rocky and less dancey to me, but I'm no expert on different tones (I'm pretty much either reggae or rock, with not a lot of different tones these days).

The difference is about 20lbs, 200 bucks, and 50% more size, though.

 

[jnewmark]

I seem to remember you had tried a full range 3015 in something and didn't like it but I might be mixing you up with someone else. The midrange character is pretty similar to my ears.

I think a pair of 3012HOs would be good for that kinda deal. The 18 sound XD125 looks like a really solid horn for that combination but I have not tried it personally. I did find that the 3012HO was not bright enough on top for my tastes, full range.

A pair of 3012LFs and an 18 sound 6nd410 fEarful 1212/6 seems like it might be better though. The 3012HO really feels more rocky and less dancey to me, but I'm no expert on different tones (I'm pretty much either reggae or rock, with not a lot of different tones these days).

The difference is about 20lbs, 200 bucks, and 50% more size, though.

So, in a 212 loaded with HO's, you would go with a midrange and not a tweeter ?

 

[rpsands]

I'd use a horn crossed over on the lower side, with a switch to disable it and bypass the crossover.

Just my pence of course.

 

[jnewmark]

I'd use a horn crossed over on the lower side, with a switch to disable it and bypass the crossover.

Just my pence of course.

I was thinking of one of those Selenium " Super Tweeters ", although they are a bit harsh to my ears. Any horn you have in mind ?

 

[rpsands]

I was thinking of one of those Selenium " Super Tweeters ", although they are a bit harsh to my ears. Any horn you have in mind ?

I keep envisioning the 18 sound XD125 with those woofers. I haven't heard them but they look great on paper and are quite affordable.

I think someone here has one in his 15/6/1 so might be able to comment.

 

[jnewmark]

I keep envisioning the 18 sound XD125 with those woofers. I haven't heard them but they look great on paper and are quite affordable.

I think someone here has one in his 15/6/1 so might be able to comment.

I'm assuming that, in a 212 loaded 2 way, the 12's would be loaded at a 4 ohm load? The 18 Sound 125 is an 8 ohm load. Where would you cross it over ?

 

[rpsands]

I'm assuming that, in a 212 loaded 2 way, the 12's would be loaded at a 4 ohm load? The 18 Sound 125 is an 8 ohm load. Where would you cross it over ?

Well there's a couple things you can look at for that. Since I haven't listened to it I can't say for absolutely sure, but here are some things to keep in mind:

1- the 3012HO rolls off naturally by around 4khz, gone by 5khz.

2- a 12" woofer becomes directional in the neighborhood of 1500hz.

3- There is a big peak centered at 2500hz (which a good crossover guy could probably handle accommodating). But it should be kept in mind.

So it all depends on what you're after. If you're wanting some zing on top, it would probably be fine to use a high pass only coming in about 3500-3700hz or so.

If it were me, I'd want to come in around 2khz with a lot of attention paid to smoothing out the 2500hz peak.

Whatever you do, get a switch to turn it off. There's just no reason not to do that.

I might even consider getting a 3 position switch set up that let you change from a 2khz steep crossover to a high pass only at 3700hz, to bypass.

Anyway, hope that helps - Ralf would be a better person to talk to about this stuff since he's the guy who does the work

 

[5StringPocket]

This twin 3012HO design with a slightly larger horn crossed a little lower at 1800 Hz should avoid that 2.5 KHz peak. This might provide a smooth extended mid and top with the Eminence NSD2005S driver attenuated to match the woofer sensitivity. The Peavey ECS-1800x crossover which is designed for a CD horn and high performance 12" driver like the 3012HO as shown should work great for this application (thanks rp). This cab has about the same footprint as the Genz Benz Neox 212T but 2" taller and 1.5" shallower. The slightly larger box (4.1 ft3 internal volume) provides a -3dB point at 60Hz, usable (-10dB) down to 48 Hz, and is very efficient. A 500 watt microamp would be enough make this 4 ohm cab scream but it could handle more. It would be thermally rated at 800 watts with an excursion limit around 675 watts and could crank out 131 dB with good dispersion. That should be more than enough to cut through a dense mix but still provide a solid bottom to support the band well. A horn bypass switch to provide the option of running this as either a 2-way or with woofers only would provide an extra tonal option.

There's lots of good ways to build these. Looking forward to what Don cooks up.

 

[KJung]

This twin 3012HO design with a slightly larger horn crossed a little lower at 1800 Hz should avoid that 2.5 KHz peak. This might provide a smooth extended mid and top with the Eminence NSD2005S driver attenuated to match the woofer sensitivity. The Peavey ECS-1800x crossover which is designed for a CD horn and high performance 12" driver like the 3012HO as shown should work great for this application (thanks rp). This cab has about the same footprint as the Genz Benz Neox 212T but 2" taller and 1.5" shallower. The slightly larger box (4.1 ft3 internal volume) provides a -3dB point at 60Hz, usable (-10dB) down to 48 Hz, and is very efficient. A 500 watt microamp would be enough make this 4 ohm cab scream but it could handle more. It would be thermally rated at 800 watts with an excursion limit around 675 watts and could crank out 131 dB with good dispersion. That should be more than enough to cut through a dense mix but still provide a solid bottom to support the band well. A horn bypass switch to provide the option of running this as either a 2-way or with woofers only would provide an extra tonal option.

There's lots of good ways to build these. Looking forward to what Don cooks up.

Looks beautiful.

One comment. That upper mid peak in the HO's is not an inherently bad thing, depending on the tone you want. That low crossover does really smooth things.

I think you can probably get a pretty good indication of the difference (at least in the top end) of a higher crossover approach and standard tweeter versus the larger horn and lower crossover by listening to this comparison clip between my AE212 (which has quite a bit in common to my ear with the 3012HO cabs... maybe a touch more inherent low end.. not sure which Eminence models Jim's proprietary 12's are based on, and the Thunder Child, which has Duke's proprietary LF driver which is voiced kind of between the HO and standard LF and that big horn crossed over a touch under 2K.

Both sound great up top, with the Thunder Child being smooth and the AE212 having that classic AE bite up top to my ear.

Just FYI... that bite at 2K or whatever can actually be a very nice thing in a mix if you are one who likes that 'hear the windings on roundwounds' type tone.

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[lomo]

As someone who loves his 15/6 that's crossed at 800Hz (mid attenuator stays at 9 o'clock) I'd love to hear comparison clips of nEarfuls that're the same except for crossover point. Having the adjustable crossover on my Scout 12s ("player control network") makes me wonder if a similar feature would be a useful enhancement to a nEarful.

 

[jnewmark]

This twin 3012HO design with a slightly larger horn crossed a little lower at 1800 Hz should avoid that 2.5 KHz peak. This might provide a smooth extended mid and top with the Eminence NSD2005S driver attenuated to match the woofer sensitivity. The Peavey ECS-1800x crossover which is designed for a CD horn and high performance 12" driver like the 3012HO as shown should work great for this application (thanks rp). This cab has about the same footprint as the Genz Benz Neox 212T but 2" taller and 1.5" shallower. The slightly larger box (4.1 ft3 internal volume) provides a -3dB point at 60Hz, usable (-10dB) down to 48 Hz, and is very efficient. A 500 watt microamp would be enough make this 4 ohm cab scream but it could handle more. It would be thermally rated at 800 watts with an excursion limit around 675 watts and could crank out 131 dB with good dispersion. That should be more than enough to cut through a dense mix but still provide a solid bottom to support the band well. A horn bypass switch to provide the option of running this as either a 2-way or with woofers only would provide an extra tonal option.

There's lots of good ways to build these. Looking forward to what Don cooks up.

Wow, that IS beautiful and thanks for putting that together. I do like a bit of zing on top, so maybe a 3 way switch would be the way to go. It does look like the GB Neox 212T, which I have owned, but, I bet it does'nt sound like one !

 

[KJung]

Wow, that IS beautiful and thanks for putting that together. I do like a bit of zing on top, so maybe a 3 way switch would be the way to go. It does look like the GB Neox 212T, which I have owned, but, I bet it does'nt sound like one !

Actually, those HO cabs do bring to mind the Genz 212T... very tight, very grindy up top, very punchy and bright.

 

[jnewmark]

Actually, those HO cabs do bring to mind the Genz 212T... very tight, very grindy up top, very punchy and bright.

Hmmm. I actually thought the GB was a little " boxy " sounding, but I did'nt have it long enough to screw around with.